M_B, you definitely make some valid points. I don't have much time, but I'll go through a little bit.

I don't like the fact that you use To Catch a Predator as an argument. This is probably another topic altogether, but the show is designed to get people to watch, not feed accurate information. I seriously doubt it is COMPLETELY random that they manage to catch the same people multiple times. They probably have IP addresses, common known forums, etc. There are ways to distort reality to get the effect that you want. They can choose who they talk to and they can choose who they invite over. Reality TV is almost never truly reality.

The point I don't have a good response for is something like knowing who is babysitting your kids. Honestly, I could not tell you a good way to know who is babysitting your kids. I hate the slippery slope argument, but I'm going to present it here: There are many things we would like to know about the people babysitting our kids. Whether they are a sex offender is one of them. There are plenty of other things that could cause results as disastrous as leaving your kid with a sex offender. Several examples include leaving your kid with an alcoholic, or even somebody with anger management issues. Obviously these aren't as clear cut as sex offenders, but they are very real threats. Nobody thinks those people should be included in a public registry though. Would you really want somebody babysitting your children who once committed second degree murder because he got angry?

I'm not trying to claim that the threat of that is as likely as the threat of molestation, but I do think that they're on the same scale, and the line is drawn the two. I'm merely trying to guage where that line is, and at what point the parent is just obsessive and overbearing.

As Mike stated, I do think that it's lame that we need something like this to protect our kids. I am just in disbelief there isn't a better way. In general, I tend to believe that you live with a the risk of people sucking. That's why I opposed the Patriot Act, and think we WAAAAAYYYYY overreacted to the terrorist attack(different debate though). As Ish was suggesting, people also have possible overreacted to pedophilia as well. Obviously there are times the risk increases to the point that it needs to be dealt with. If it has in fact reached that point with repeat sex offenders, why not require people to have a cursory criminal history check whenever you wish for them to be a babysitter or in some way dealing with your kids alone? I understand it might be a little inconvenient, but I could envision a system where it isn't much of a hastle and would work just as well as your registry. Keep in mind, I don't know I would support this over not having either this or the registry, but I'd definitely prefer something like that to the registry.

And yes, Mike, statutory rape will land you on the registry. I tend to devalue the significance of many statutory rape cases. I think in general, girls understand what they're doing and can/will decide for themselves by age 15 or 16. It's obviously different for every person, but statutory rape is really something I think NEEDS to be handled on a case by case basis.

Good topic. I'll throw in my two cents.

I have no problem with the existence of a sex offender registry. I do think it needs to be modified in order to have any real usefulness. Do we care if some guy in our neighborhood had sex with a 16-yr-old when he was 18? It should probably be limited to those who've had inappropriate physical contact with a minor of an unreasonable age difference.

quote:

Originally posted by MajorNougat:
If you've ever had an addiction(even a small one), you know that environmental stressors can trigger a relapse. Likewise with sex offenders, if you truly feel that all of them have an incurable addiction, then you have to acknowledge that environmental stressors WILL affect whether and when they repeat. Hell, in one sense, many addictions and problems can be tied to feeling alone in the world. I don't see it as beneficial to contribute to that.

By the same token, if an offender lives near where children play, or is allowed to teach children, doesn't that make it more likely they will give in to their temptations?

The main difference here seems to be on whether we believe everyone should have equal rights to all things? Isn't that the American way? Well, in theory yes, but in practice, no. There are numerous laws in the books restricting some from the rights that others enjoy based on past behaviors (or age for that matter). For example: how do you feel about laws that prevent past violent offenders from purchasing a gun? (There's a good topic unto itself…) Besides, isn't the existence of prisons and mental institutions a violation of those individuals' rights?

What is the responsibility of the government in regards to its citizens?

There is no way a sex offender can teach. That has been in place long before the Registry. Then again, I guess everything has cracks.

Cool to have your input SDF. First of all, I think we're all in agreement that the laws include way too many people, and to be permanently not allowed to teach because you had sex with a girl two years younger when you were 18 is obviously ridiculus. I do agree then that because of the far-reaching nature of the law, the registry is too diluted to have any effect.

Next, as mr. f said, sex offenders can't teach. I certainly am not arguing for them teaching or being allowed to be alone with kids. I am fine with the idea that you give up certain rights as a sex offender. Just like a person with a history of violence can't buy a gun, you lose your right to deal with kids. I'm fine with that(once again, as long as it's limited to extreme cases). My problem isn't with giving up rights, so much as it is giving up any possibility to move on with your life, which I feel being placed in a public registry does, at least in theory. Maybe as M_B suggested, they're all so prone to repeating that there just isn't any way that they can lead normal lives. If that's really the case, I don't think we take enough precaution.

As for guns, this isn't really the topic for it, but I tend to view gun ownership as more of a privilege than a right, or at least that it should be that way. I think both sides of the gun debate are absurd though, and I view the overbearing mom perspective as only a small step above the NRA(which sure isn't saying much).

Continuing on the slight tangent of equal rights, I am in general weary of infringing on rights, and I would prefer to not infringe on the rights of people. Without bringing Kant into this debate, I do believe the ends can justify the means though(the means in this case being rights infringment), but I also believe the ends(societal gain) need to be substantial to justify it.

What were we talking about again? Oh yeah, the sex offender registry.

There are other felonies which can keep you from teaching, at least here in California. I don't know exactly what they are, but they do strict background checks, and you are required to state whether you've ever been arrested and clearly explain why. AS I said earlier though, people can usually slip through the cracks.

That makes sense. You don't want a convicted drug seller teaching, especially 6 - 9th grades when kids are most likely to take up drugs.

True, but depending on the school, many of the kids will hve already become avid druggies. What really needs to watched is the rapists, not the drug-sellers. We wouldn't want kids to become avid drug-doing rapists, that would just be silly.

One felony is enough.

I believe that i have a personal stake in this discussion of sex offender registration.

i live in illinois

a little over a year ago, at my high school, i met a young woman who was 16. i was 18 at the time. i was fairly set on not becoming involved with her. but she continued to say and do things that were an attempt for me to become romantically and physically involved with her.

a little background information. this young woman was the first person i had ever kissed, (yea, i was a nerd in highschool), and she was the first person that i ever did any "adult" activities with. furthermore, she is the only person that i have done these things with to date. kissing, or otherwise.

i dated her straight through my first year of college. and when i say dated, i mean fanatical devotion. the people who lived in the dorms around mine continually told me that i should break up with her and seek a relationship with a woman in town, every time i refused, i was simply that devoted to her. she was literally what kept me going through the weeks of endless assignments that kept me awake till 3 am just to wake up at 7:30 and start again. but when i recentally came home from college for summer break(not my first time being home from college for break, just this is a super long break), i learned of some very very bad things that she did behind my back. when i confronted her with them, she became angry. her father called me perhaps an hour later and told me that if i ever laid eyes on her again, he would press charges on me for harassment.

well, aside from various death threats from her friends (which i have a very strong belief that many of them will be attempted to be carried out). my most pressing concern is that i am going to be charged with statutory rape. honestly, i dont have any defence, because i did engage in adult activity with someone under the age of consent, i willingly admit it.

this is a situation where i am heavily under the impresson that the punishment does NOT fit the "crime." yes, i did adult things with my girlfriend. who i took to movies. who i took out to dinner several times each week, and even lunch the same day on occassion. who i gave all of my graduation momentos (which normally, should go to the mother), who i drove to work (because her father told her that whenever i was home that it would be my responcibility cause he was, in essence lazy), who i bought very expensive gifts for, who i stayed up with every night and talked on the phone till 3 or 4 am, who i drove an excess of an hour to simply pick her up and turn around when she called me crying that one of her friends at her mothers house tried to kiss her and grop her. who i tutored for her final exams, and helped her get a gigantic grade improvement, who i spent countless hours at the park with escourting her brother and sister while they played on the swings, and who i trusted not to do promiscious things while she was in a relationship with me (which i find out she did, and lied to me starting halfway through our relationship). i went with her to family events. i took her to the store so she could buy whatever it is women buy at the store jewelry and purses and what not, i took her to various appointments, such as at pearl vision to get contacts. but those are things that i did with her family. i took her to many of my familys events. christmas, thanksgiving, birthdays, just simple "hey, lets get together" days. my family adored her, she was at my neighbors' house (i consider them an extra set of grandparents) the vast majority of that summer swimming in their pool, whether i was even awake from staying up all night writing her love letters and poems yet or not. her family adored me. honestly it seemed like we were the perfect couple.

i dont think that this is a situation where i coerced her to engage in adult activities with me. if you will take my word for it, during the begining of the relationship, she iniated everything, because i was apprehensive. who wouldnt be? i was a newbie. but even during the later half, she iniated the activites more than i did, by my reccolection. i honestly dont think that simply kissing a woman can be considered coersion to engage in adult activites. the money that i used to buy her all the things that i did? the food, the presents, the gas money to drive her places? the majority of it was money that i had saved up since i was a very young child, because my parents always said "you need to save for a car!" well, i didnt use my car, it was my parents. and when i did get one, it was using money out of my college trust fund, the money i would have used was spent willingly buying things to make her laugh, or smile, or simply just happy. young women really do love to eat tacobell at 1 in the morning, its true.

i honestly considered this a mutual relationship. she would spend vast amounts of time with me, laughing, and whatever else boyfriends and girlfriends do. we talked about the future, if we would still be together in a year, 2 years, more. we talked about her friends, and i listened to her cry about difficulties at work, and at school, and at social events that i didnt attend. i would eat home cooked meals at both her fathers house, and her mothers house. i would watch movies with her family at both houses for hours and hours at a time.

and for the record, we used protection, at my insistance, every single time with no exceptions. she wasnt very happy with that decision.

so, i seriously would like to know why, according to a person who posted previous in this thread, my behavior is vile, flthy, sickening, and what have you. i would like to know why, if i am indeed charged with statutory rape, and i am indeed convicted of it, because i have absolutely zero defence, (i willingly admit that i engaged in adult activity with my girlfriend who was 16 years old, which is one year below the age of consent. she told me she loved me, i believed her, but later found out that she began to develop feelings for other people during the relationship (perhaps not surprisingly, most of these other people were also adults). i loved her, and, honestly on penality of purgery, i would have willingly, with no consideration for myself, given her one of my kidneys if for some reason it was required. yes, we did actually have this discussion between me and her at one point. and, still on penality of purgury, if she seriously needed that kidney, today, or 5 years from now when i am in prison getting beaten to death by drugged up inmates, i would still give it to her, again with absolutely no consideration for myself. i think that most people would consider that to have something to do with love in spite of betrayel) i should be given a fine, which would completely exaust the money that i am using to finance my college education, i should be sent to prison, where as someone in this thread also stated, i would probably be killed, (i am not an agressive person at all. i mind my own business, and would much rather read the news on digg.com, or play flash games, than even play twohand touch football) and why should i be put on the national sex offender registry, which will cause my future untold harm. it will limit my possibiitys for future relationships, if i ever manage to meet a woman that will marry me, it will limit my childrens ability to recieve a decent public education, and it will severely limit my ability to pursue my intended career of software engineering.

i have never been physically agressive towards anyone since the moment i realized that it was a bad thing to do (id say around 12 years old), i have never stolen anything from a place of business, or ripped someone off intentionally (again, since around 12 years old) (i know quite a few cleptomaniacs) and i have never renigged on any contract, or any agreement whatsoever. in fact, even after i found out all the horrible things she did, i still attempted to follow through with a promise that i made to her sister to give her my collection of fiction books from when i was in grade school, and middle school (approximate worth being around 60 dollars). for the record, she refused to let me do so.

why would i diserve this conviction, and the subsequent punishment?

For one thing you shouldn't deserve punishment at all! I don't think anyone is going to argue that, though on these forums you never know.

I don't really agree with the notion that, at 17, 18, 21 or whenever a "child" suddenly blossoms into an adult and immediately becomes able to handle sex, booze, etc. It's very obviously a gradual process and while what you were doing was technically very illegal I don't see it as even mildly immoral.

Hell, sex is good, anyone who would convict you is obviously an uptight arse. To quote the Beatles, Why don't we do it in the road?

and, im sorry to continue the discription after i made my case, but i honestly forgot that this situation had even happened.

during the winter months, while i was at college, and still dating my girlfriend, a woman contacted me who i had had a romantic interest with several years previous, so far as to go to church with her every week for over 3 months, but never had it amount to anything due to her mother being very very very restrictive and not liking that i was not a baptist. (my actual religion was considered extremely irrevelent to her, because her, and her husband, say "its the baptist way, or the hellway" (not literally, thats complete slander on my part, and is not intended to be offensive. but you get the picture.))

well, this woman, she continually made agruements for me to end my relationship with my current girlfriend, and start a new one with her, because her mother no longer had her under her thumb. i politely refused, stating that my moral obligation was to the woman that i was romantically involved with currently.



in responce to dork. i also am under the notion that giving very strict cut off ages for when you can smoke, or drink, or have sex, is completely against reality. (i do, however agree with the driving age laws. evidence points to the older you are, the better you drive.) i can tell you hundreds of stories where people i know would analyze the risks associated with taking up smoking and compare those risks to the social benifits. they made a very informed decision, at the age of maybe 15, or 16. again with drinking. i know hundreds of situations where people would look at the risks, and compare them with potential gains. people i know,as young as 16, have consumed alcohol knowing exactly they were doing, and purposely arranged to be in a safe place when they were doing it.

in regards to sex, what makes a 16 year old, who has had various forms of intercourse multiple times with multiple partners, less able to understand what they are doing than an 18 year old who had never kissed a woman, had rarely hugged a woman younger than his friends sister (who he had been babysat WITH, not BY) who was at age 21 by this time, and who's handholding experience is far below the local par.

this i simply cannot comprehend.

I am in a unique position with regards to weighing in on this topic. I am a registered sex offender and according to the laws of the state I live in I am classified as a "Violent sex offender" unlike the state where I was convicted. I'm not a predator or a pedophile and I've never raped or kidnapped anyone. I accepted an Alfred Plea to a crime I did not commit to avoid the possibility of a mandatory lifetime sentence if I ran the risk of maintaining my innocence (a 50-50 cahnce my attorney told me) vs. 5 years probation and a charge of attempted lewdness. Ten years later I'm still paying the price and they just made it illegal for me to drop my own kid off at school. It's easy to weigh in and say "death to the sex offenders" and "kill-em all then let God sort them out". I thought I'd be done with this by now but each year it gets worse and I am not a repeat offender, I have no urges to violate children. My family and my children suffer more and will suffer more moving forward
with this than my so-called victem. This isn't about justice, rehabilitation or anything more than widespread fear, hatred and stupidity.
I work hard, pay my taxes and pray that there is some relief on the horizon.

With all due respect to the innocent, I strongly believe that sex offenders are the scourge of the earth. Aside from murderers and those who mutilate in an attempt to kill, sex offenders are the worst of the worst and would have absolutely no rights in my book. I don’t care if it is a sickness because the amount of repeat offenders is staggering and there is absolutely no place for them. I realize that there are levels in the registry and some registered offenders are 18 year olds whose 17 year old girlfriend’s parents pressed charges but I think people here understand who I’m referring to. If my son or wife were ever effected in the slightest way by a sex offender, than there would be no force on earth which could save that person from my wrath.

For those who are innocent or claim innocence, I’d be curious to know the circumstances of the mistaken identity. Much like those who are accused of just about any crime that they didn’t commit, I’d wager that they did something to put themselves in the spotlight. How many people have been plucked from their homes in a complete state of innocence, with absolutely no connection to the crime with which they have been charged and are found guilty with zero evidence against them? Take the case of Titans cornerback “Pacman” Jones. He was at the strip club where the shootings took place and claims innocence. I would have more sympathy for such a person if he had been home watching a movie and was arrested in a case of mistaken identity.

This doesn’t pertain directly to you or your response Platypus. If your life has been made a living hell on completely fabricated circumstances, then I sympathize with you just as much as I do with the victims of sex offenders. As for the offenders themselves, I offer no sympathy and wouldn’t even attempt to understand their thought process. The death penalty would be a perfectly suitable course of action as far as I’m concerned: even for first time offenders. If God or whomever runs the system that we all fall under sees fit to take the lives of 5 year old with leukemia or any other ailment, then he could certainly bless off on terminating the lives of those who are born with the “sickness” that is the desire to violate the innocent.

I can certainly understand where you're coming from, P-Bo. I'm not sure if there is any hard evidence (or if it can ever be truly accumulated), but I believe that many sex offenders were themselves the victims of sex crimes at a young age. I don't have any numbers at hand, but somebody might check. If I'm correct, then I find it difficult to send victims who continue to victimize others to death. Basically, you'll have a never-ending line leading up to the gallows until there is some way to prevent the crime from occurring, and I cannot envision that until we are in a much more perfect world.

It is a person's choice to committ a sexual crime against someone. In my time treating sexual offenders I heard hundreds of stories and lots of excuses. It is a power trip over someone else, a way to feed an errant ego. You can make it something else but I have described it for you. I know about murderous rape, incest, beatings, molestation, bestiality, and all kinds of other crap. I know a guy who castrated himself, but he continued to offend. I switch from offenders to survivors and I helped a few thousand of them get the shame out of their hearts and spirits. I am proud of that.

I've had to sit through counseling sessions with "sex offenders" and I have seen the excuses and the justifications. There is no justification for damaging another human being sexually or even physically. What's clear in my experience is that the term sex offender is very loosely applied to include predators, rapists, flashers and statutory rape.
Some of these folks come from some bad situations where they were repeatedly abused sexually themselves and the criminal justice system should have the flexibility to offer redemption in cases where a life can be salvaged. I agree that many appear to be screwed up beyond help and their mere presence makes one's skin crawl; however if a person is capable of turning their life around and becoming a functional member of society I think there should be a path available to get there.
People seem all to eager to condemn others and deny rights to others, without realizing that they may be burning a bridge they themselves might need to cross one day.
I have two children and yes I am concerned about the dangerous people in the world but I know better than to think a website is going to protect them. In my case the website is a threat to their safety and the laws that are getting passed threaten the stability of their home (have to move again if they increase the laws about distance I can live from a schoolyard, playground or park).
My life has influenced the lives of hundreds if not thousands of other people in positive and useful ways. If I had been killed in the name of justice for an act of attempted lewdness
the world would not be a better place. That's worse than an "eye for an eye" it's "your dead for an eye". You can't rehabilitate everyone but I'd rather leave the killing up to the murderers and the real hard cases. I don't want to sign off on the death of another person.

Here are some interesting findings from a study in Greece:

quote:

Relationships between Cloninger's temperament and character dimensions and plasma sex hormone levels and biogenic amine turnover were studied in male prison inmates convicted of rape (n=61) or child molestation (n=24) and normal male controls (n=25). The participants completed the Temperament and Character Inventory (TCI), which includes the temperament dimensions Novelty Seeking, Harm Avoidance, Reward Dependence and Persistence as well as the character dimensions Self-Directedness, Cooperativeness and Self-Transcendence. Plasma levels of testosterone, dihydrotestosterone, sex hormone binding globulin, luteinizing hormone (LH) and follicle-stimulating hormone were estimated in plasma samples and 5-hydroxyindoleacetic acid (5-HIAA), homovanillic acid (HVA), and 3-methoxy-4-hydroxyphenylglycol (MHPG) in urine samples. Both sex offender groups had higher Novelty, Seeking and lower Reward Dependence, Self-Directedness and Cooperativeness scores compared with the controls. Plasma levels of testosterone and dihydrotestosterone were significantly higher in rapists than in controls. Novelty Seeking scores were positively correlated with LH levels in rapists, and with testosterone levels in child molesters. Harm Avoidance scores were negatively correlated with 5-HIAA levels in rapists and with HVA levels in child molesters. In rapists, the calculated free androgen index showed a negative correlation with 5-HIAA. For the sex offender sample as a whole, the subgroup with high testosterone levels had higher Harm Avoidance scores, the subgroup with low HVA levels had lower Cooperativeness scores, and the subgroups with high 5HIAA or MHPG levels had lower Persistence scores. The results indicate that Novelty Seeking behavior in the group of rapists is associated with a hyperactive hypothalamic-pituitry-gonadal axis. In addition, low serotonin turnover and low dopamine turnover seem to be associated with a passive-avoidant behavioral style in rapists and child molesters, respectively.

Looking at these results, it appears that there are particular biological characteristics more common in "Sex Offenders," meaning that it isn't, at least completely, to be blamed on the offender. I will admit that while high testosterone levels may be an indicator of what someone may do, it is ultimately choice that determines what one will do unless affected by psychological issues which may be caused by the childhood abuse Mark spoke of.

This is a really sticky debate and, ultimately, such things are better to look at on a smaller scale instead of generalities. But I can say that I don't feel comfortable punishing harshly someone whose only crime is having a consensual relationship with someone a few years their minor.

Welcome to the site Platypus, thanks for your contributions.

I feel That the laws need to be refines in the fact that all Sexual Offenders are not Craving lunatics that are perverting there way around town hunting kids over and over. The Recidivism rate for sex offendors are 3% and the recidivism rate for murderers are 1% this is based on a sexual offender study in florida groups by florida sex offender psychologists. I am a Sex Offender and when i was 17 i had my first kid and moved to orlando when i was 18 to go to college and open a business. I opened up a business in orlando florida and got separated from the mother of my child and was dating another female which turned out to be 14 and was turning 15 the following month and i turned 18 the month before. well we had sex and 8 months down the line the police knocked on my door asking if i ever seen that girl before and i told them yes and CoOperated with the officer because im running a legitimate business and dont want any problems. so i informed him that we were dating and did have sex and he goes ahead and tells me that she was running away that night and was trying to find out where she was running away too and that she was a druggie and has domestic violence charges and 3 drug charges and was currently on probation and attending a drug rehabilitation program when she Ran away. and next thing you know im in jail and my business gets shut down and i dont get to see my son for three years because i was fighting this charge and didnt get to finish highschool to start college. now does this mean im a sex offender or do it because i know it was wrong.? i wassnt even aware of the statute saying a senior in high school cant have a relationship with a softmore. wll thats what happened to me. and now im a sex offender for life and cant get into college because of it.

Wow! This thread has been busy!

quote:

Originally posted by MajorNougat:
I don't like the fact that you use To Catch a Predator as an argument. This is probably another topic altogether, but the show is designed to get people to watch, not feed accurate information. I seriously doubt it is COMPLETELY random that they manage to catch the same people multiple times. They probably have IP addresses, common known forums, etc. There are ways to distort reality to get the effect that you want. They can choose who they talk to and they can choose who they invite over. Reality TV is almost never truly reality.

'To Catch a Predator' isn't 'Real World' or 'Survivor'. I don't think you have to do much to make these guys look bad. Yes, they are baited, but if you had someone start talking to you about sexual situations & they made clear that they were 14, would you agree to meet them at their house? Would you send them pics & vids of you doing nasty things? I would hope not! It's not like 'Real World' where they take the person's bad side & only air that so they look like a jerk, these guys are despicable enough as soon as they walk through the door. They don't target certain individuals, these guys come to them. Are you saying that these people would've never done this if not for the show?

quote:

I tend