That's pretty fuuny, Monkey. How old are your kids again?

It reminds me of what Ron Burgundy does with his own head on AFV. My son is 4 and my daughter is 2.

quote:

Originally posted by /\/\1X3:
What about people on or below the poverty level who are forced to go further in debt due to the fact that Christmas is such a commercial holiday.

I was once among those very poor folks and Christmas was really the ONE time of year we could look forward to. It didn't put us further in debt because my mother actually used most of her income tax refund to make sure we had a Christmas every year. When things got really tight, there were/are charities that help out with donated gifts. Yes, I was in one of those families that recieved the canned goods, clothes and toys most of you donated to those drives held by schools, grocery stores and churches. And we thank you.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Monkey_Boy,

I don't know Monkey, I'm having a really tough time even making rent every month, and now I have to worry about getting all of those whom I love gifts that reflect how much I truly appreciate their part in my life. I'm not going to steal gifts for them, and I'm working on mixtapes for some of the my love ones, but I don't think I will be able to recipricate the wonderful gifts that my friends and family always get me.

quote:

Originally posted by /\/\1X3:
I don't know Monkey, I'm having a really tough time even making rent every month, and now I have to worry about getting all of those whom I love gifts that reflect how much I truly appreciate their part in my life. I'm not going to steal gifts for them, and I'm working on mixtapes for some of the my love ones, but I don't think I will be able to recipricate the wonderful gifts that my friends and family always get me.

Dude, I don't know. The very best gifts I've ever gotten were not the most expensive. They were the gifts that showed that the giver thought enough to spend some time and effort to get it right. Those who love you know your financial situation. A well thought out mixtape would mean more to me than some store bought piece of crap. I don't know if you are musical, but if you wrote or recorded something, or if you illustrated a poem. It sounds so corny, but, you know, it's totally true.

I'm going to punch the next person that tells me "Merry Christmas". I mean damn, don't put your fake ass, corporate brainwashed holiday on me. Keep your "merry Christmas" to yourself. In fact, stick your "merry Christmas" where the sun don't shine.

There's nothing I hate more than the "fake". And there's nothing more fake than Christmas.

Christmas is suppose to be about love. It's suppose to be about loved ones coming together and loving one another and sharing time with each other. And how do we do that? By giving each other a bunch of crap that we don't need, by throwing our money down the toilet consuming useless garbage to show our love and affection(and obligation) for the other person.

What a farce. him:"I love you honey", "Merry Christmas, I got this for you". her: "oh, dear, thank you, it's a diamond necklace that you spent a thousand dollars on", "and I can wear this to show everyone how much you love me", "and then it can sit in my jewelry box for the rest of my life".

Waste of money. That's what our society is good at, and that's why Christmas is sooooo big. Because we love to waste our money on shit we don't need, because it makes us feels good, just like crack makes the crackhead feel good.

That’s certainly a very negative approach to it…

I must admit Christmas annoys me a little bit, i.e. the songs are really starting to frost my Kelvinator, as I work in a Shopping Plaza.

There IS a level of expectation from our loved ones during Christmas time to go out of our way and buy or acquire something special for someone special, and I don’t think there is anything wrong with that at all. If you really care about someone, it should be a joyous event to take the time to think “what can I get this person to show them I understand them and that I really care about them” You don’t have to spend money on someone to do that, but really what difference does it make? Say for example, imagine if you actually spent 2 weeks toiling in mines for a couple of diamonds, and then you gave those diamonds to your significant other because you know he/she REALLY loves diamonds, is it really all that different from toiling in an office building earning the money to pay someone else for the end product? Obviously it depends on how much effort went into getting the gift, either way it’s the thought that counts. It annoys me when people complain about marketing, get over it. Unfortunately supply and demand is part of our society. Even if we were living in a society with no money or market place what so ever, humans would still find a way to give something to their loved ones, and then the seed of expectation is planted and begins to grow.

If someone is really a good person and really understands you, they’ll know whether said “Diamond Necklace” was actually an effort or not to acquire, intended as a thoughtful gift, or if you’re just trying to buy them off with something fancy, and I don’t think people like being bought.

I’ve found that this year Christmas has if anything tested me, and made me realize that I could make steps to being a little more thoughtful myself, like for example “why didn’t I pay attention all those times the people I know harped on about the things they needed or wanted”.

The other side to it is jealousy, you buy/acquire diamonds for your girlfriend, and her best friends gets jealous when she finds out, because her boy-friend gave her something significantly less of material value. Again this is an example of how it tests people.

People are always going to find a negative side to everything; I guess it depends on how YOU want to look at it, and the people you choose to surround yourself with.

God forbid that people might actually be happy and have a good time with their families. Can't imagine why anyone would enjoy that. It's so terrible!

Merry Christmas, hudson.

I don't waste MY money on crappy "one time use only" gifts. You just have to think about what the person truly desires. The love is in the thought in the gift you buy. I don't get someone something I KNOW they'll only use once or return on December 26th. That's just dumb. Besides, you aren't wasting that much money if you pick up gifts the entire year, instead of waiting for Black Friday. Most of my Christmas shopping was done before Thanksgiving! Just make sure you get things they want, but won't buy themselves.

It seems most people want to get angry about the materialism of Christmas, but it's not about expensive gifts for everyone. (Nor should it be.) I spent $50 on a DVD player and $10 on a DVD for my mother last year. It was one she had rented when I was just a kid and I remembered how much that film had an affect on her. When she opened 'em, she actually cried because she couldn't believe I got her a DVD player and that I remembered that she loved that movie! And, yes, she still uses her player and watches "The Emerald Forest". Same goes for everyone I buy gifts for. If you're sick of people not really enjoying your gifts, put more thought into 'em besides, "I gotta get them a present BECAUSE it's Christmas!" Instead, think, "What have they really been wanting, but they don't know to ask for it?" It shouldn't be that hard to figure it out if they are family and friends. You should know them inside out. I'll tell ya what, though, if I buy a gift for someone and they scoff because it wasn't enough money, you can rest assured that I'll NEVER buy them anything again. (However, I've never had that happen.)

Are those of you that are so upset with gift-giving at Christmas also angry whenever birthdays or Valentine's Day pop up? Or is it just because you're so overwhelmed by the number of people to shop for?

That's interesting Hudson. Aren't you mr. free enterprise? At least some of the shit you've been spewing over in the politics thread seems to make me think that. Without X-mas, our country would go to shit. We are a retail driven society and they almost all lose money for three out of four quarters a year. This so-called, fake holiday really drives our economy.

EDIT: I just realized that you are consistently anti-consumerism. Apologies.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Maximum Jack,

quote:

Originally posted by Keeper of the Cheese:
Say for example, imagine if you actually spent 2 weeks toiling in mines for a couple of diamonds, and then you gave those diamonds to your significant other because you know he/she REALLY loves diamonds, is it really all that different from toiling in an office building earning the money to pay someone else for the end product? Obviously it depends on how much effort went into getting the gift, either way it’s the thought that counts.

Well, I guess my issue is the fact that diamonds don't mean shit. And if you want to go into it, the diamond trade has fueled more wars and caused more deaths in the past 50 years than any other product out there.

And why? Because corporate marketing by companies like Debeers has convinced you and everyone else out there that diamonds are a girl's best friend, that bling is important. My girlfriend will be just as happy without a diamond necklace as she would be with one, and no one has to die in order for her to be happy. Think about it, think about the whole idea of a holiday built around the concept of spending money on some meaningless trinket in order to say "I love you". How much more shallow can a society get?

And meanwhile, the real love is absent. Why do think that divorce rates are now in excess of 50%, why do think that long term relationships last no longer than 3-7 years? Because we're too busy trying to find a way to buy things rather than love people. And Christmas has become a perfect example of this.

quote:

And meanwhile, the real love is absent. Why do think that divorce rates are now in excess of 50%, why do think that long term relationships last no longer than 3-7 years? Because we're too busy trying to find a way to buy things rather than love people. And Christmas has become a perfect example of this.

Something about this statement tells me you have little or no experience in long term relationships, hudson. If you think the reason people split up can really be summed up that simply, then you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

quote:

And why? Because corporate marketing by companies like Debeers has convinced you and everyone else out there that diamonds are a girl's best friend

That I agree with. Somehow the companies that sell diamonds have convinced the world that they are somehow more precious then anything else.

I can kind of see what you're trying to say, hudson. You're right - it does seem a bit pointless to buy somebody something (even if they don't really want anything) just because you're supposed to one day a year. But here's a question for you, hudson: what if I buy something for a family member that they really wanted? What if my mom or girlfriend really would be happy to get jewelry? What's so bad about that? If your mom said to you, "son, I would really like it if someone bought me this necklace" would you tell her "Well I won't do it, mom. Christmas is a stupid holiday anyway."

Another question: what are you getting for Christmas? Surely you didn't tell your family "I don't want anything. I see no purpose of Christmas, so don't get me anything." If you actually don't get anything, then I'll have a new-found respect for you.

First off Herlihy, I stand by my comment regarding long term relationships. You see, these days, people are selfish, they want what they want and they want it now.

We live in a materialistic society, which means that the primary basis for personal importance rests in material things(ie. cars, houses, clothes, electronic gadgets, tivo, flat screen tv's, money, portfolios, toys).

Why do you think that the mothers in our society drop their kids off in daycare while they go to work? Because buying shit for their kids is more important that spending time with the kid. The relationship with a spouse is no different.

A significant other is just one more acquisition in a string of material belongings. In our society we take on a spouse because they give us what we want in the here and now(love, affection, security, belonging). But...as soon as one's significant other threatens their pursuit of success and material wealth, they dump them faster than you can say "wtf". Then, they look to upgrade. You know, the grass is greener....

Obviously, there are exceptions, but most relationships, and more importantly marriages, end because they interfere with one of the spouse's selfish pursuits.

Simply put, people are selfish and in order to make a long term relationship work, both people must be selfless, as love is based on sacrifice. This is why relationships no longer last in our society.

Also Herlihy, I don't have to tell my family and friends not to get me anything for Christmas. They know me well enough to know that I neither want nor need a single material good.

And my mother would never ask for a necklace, she's not like that. She's like me, as is my entire family. We could give a crap less about material things.

quote:

Originally posted by hudson the snowman:
Well, I guess my issue is the fact that diamonds don't mean shit.

Maybe Diamonds do mean shit, maybe they don’t. I think it depends on the person and whether or not that person loves them and deserves them, but hasn’t been DEMANDING them. I don’t think there is anything shallow in giving someone something they have wanted and deserved, as a means of showing you care.

quote:

Originally posted by hudson the snowman:
And if you want to go into it, the diamond trade has fueled more wars and caused more deaths in the past 50 years than any other product out there.

And why? Because corporate marketing by companies like Debeers has convinced you and everyone else out there that diamonds are a girl's best friend, that bling is important. My girlfriend will be just as happy without a diamond necklace as she would be with one, and no one has to die in order for her to be happy. Think about it, think about the whole idea of a holiday built around the concept of spending money on some meaningless trinket in order to say "I love you". How much more shallow can a society get?

That maybe true but I don’t think it’s reasonable to blame Christmas for wars that were provoked over Diamonds, because some company has marketed them as “a girls best friend” during the Christmas period, or any other period, that just seems like a bit of a stretch to me. If you really want to get into it, millions of people have died for your happiness and right to live in a free society where you have the right to speak your mind. For everything that is rare or valuable there is always going to be people risking their necks and dying over it, not that I’m saying that people should have to die, but there are hundreds of reasons for war and death, and you can easily look at almost anything in a grim and negative way.

I don’t know if marketing created “the spirit of giving” as means of making money, or if it already existed and marketing just prayed on it, either way, what are you going to do? NEVER give anyone anything under any circumstances where you will have to buy the gift? Even if you did choose to do that, even if there was no Christmas or Birthdays or Valentines Day, I guarantee you soon enough, some guy would go out of his way to acquire something for someone he loves, then other people would start doing the same thing, soon enough someone is going to see a profitable living in catering to these people and then the market is born.

Ofcourse companies are going to advertise their product to be as enticing as possible, to as many people as possible, what do you expect them to do? NOT advertise their product? Or advertise it buy saying “Diamonds are just shiny, worthless rocks, and no one really needs them, so if you want them eh whatever”.

I know my Mother doesn’t see much advertisement, but I also know if I bought her Diamonds she would absolutely LOVE them, personally I think that the saying “Diamonds are a girls best friend” was created because woman in general already loved them. Advertisement just caters to that love, so I don’t think marketing is to blame for causing that love for Diamonds in the first place, because it was probably already there, AND although I know some pretty susceptible people, I would still give them a little more credit then assuming they are complete slaves to everything they see.

I'm sure that many people already know this, but "Diamonds are a Girl's Best Friend" is a song written by Jule Styne for the Broadway show Gentlemen Prefer Blondes. The most famous version was sung by Marilyn Monroe in the film version. Oh yeah, the play and movie are both comedies.

Continue.

I was aware of said song, but i don't know who came up with the line first.

quote:

Originally posted by hudson the snowman:
First off Herlihy, I stand by my comment regarding long term relationships. You see, these days, people are selfish, they want what they want and they want it now.

We live in a materialistic society, which means that the primary basis for personal importance rests in material things(ie. cars, houses, clothes, electronic gadgets, tivo, flat screen tv's, money, portfolios, toys).

Why do you think that the mothers in our society drop their kids off in daycare while they go to work? Because buying shit for their kids is more important that spending time with the kid. The relationship with a spouse is no different.

A significant other is just one more acquisition in a string of material belongings. In our society we take on a spouse because they give us what we want in the here and now(love, affection, security, belonging). But...as soon as one's significant other threatens their pursuit of success and material wealth, they dump them faster than you can say "wtf". Then, they look to upgrade. You know, the grass is greener....

Obviously, there are exceptions, but most relationships, and more importantly marriages, end because they interfere with one of the spouse's selfish pursuits.

Simply put, people are selfish and in order to make a long term relationship work, both people must be selfless, as love is based on sacrifice. This is why relationships no longer last in our society.

Also Herlihy, I don't have to tell my family and friends not to get me anything for Christmas. They know me well enough to know that I neither want nor need a single material good.

And my mother would never ask for a necklace, she's not like that. She's like me, as is my entire family. We could give a crap less about material things.

Just when I think you can't take the act any further, you manage to continue to push the envelope. At least, I hope this is an act. Because if you honestly believe even half of the shit you are writing (emphases are mine), you live in a sad, stange little world, and you are doomed. What cliched generalizations. You know, you can make all if this stuff come true in your life, or you can choose to have none of it happen.

If you're wondering how I can be such an effing expert, it's because I have been happily married for 17 years, with two happy, healthy kids whom we dote on, and adore. We are materially successful, to be sure, through a combination of a little good luck, and an enormous amount of study and hard work. And, you know what? We're happy. Genuinely so. No angst, or dark nights of the soul.

When we give each other gifts, no one asks, or cares about the price. They are a physical expression of our love for each other. The thought really is what counts. Have I ever given my wife diamonds? Sure. (conflict free, of course) Does it form any kind of basis for our relationship? Not at all. And Christmas is just a time when we get to spend more time together, and reflect on our very good fortune, to have had another year in each others' company, and hope for another, and another after that. I just had a relative die. A young girl. Her family won't have Christmas with her.

Again, I hope you are posturing. Because, otherwise, I can only wonder what sort of bad things have happened in your life to make you so terribly cynical. And I would really feel sorry for you.

No kendo, i'm not posturing, and honestly, I think it's quite naive of you to assume so.

quote:

Originally posted by kendocubano:
If you're wondering how I can be such an effing expert, it's because I have been happily married for 17 years, with two happy, healthy kids whom we dote on, and adore. We are materially successful, to be sure, through a combination of a little good luck, and an enormous amount of study and hard work. And, you know what? We're happy. Genuinely so. No angst, or dark nights of the soul.

17 years. Big deal. Remember when people used to stay together til death? Remember those days? Granted, 17 years is a freakin' eternity in this day and age, but forgive me if I don't do jumping jacks in celebration.

You kendo, having been married for 17 years, are in the extreme minority, sadly. Unfortunately, most children grow up in broken homes, and unfortunately, most marriages end in divorce. Those are the cold hard facts, look it up. Sorry if it's not the rosy picture you thought it was. And if you think those facts aren't due to our society's selfishness and materialism, you need to wake up and look around.

I'm with hudson on the crazy consumerism that hits Americans during the holiday season. My family and I have made a big effort to cut back on our holiday spending the past couple years, and this year, with the exception of the kids in the family, we're not exchanging gifts.

To me, at least in my adult life, the holiday is more about spending time with your family as opposed to showing your family how much you can spend on them. I get far more enjoyment out of sitting around, telling stories, playing games, eating completely unhealthy food, and getting drunk with my family than I do spending hours unwrapping gifts that I'll forget about in a year.

Also, I'm not a very religious guy, but I really think the out of control spending that goes on during Christmas (in America at least) is sending the wrong message to kids about the meaning of the holiday. Every time I see people getting into fist fights over a Furby (or whatever the hot toy may be) on the news, it makes me want to throw up.

quote:

Originally posted by hudson the snowman:

17 years. Big deal. Remember when people used to stay together til death? Remember those days? Granted, 17 years is a freakin' eternity in this day and age, but forgive me if I don't do jumping jacks in celebration.

Well, forgive me for not having died yet. My very reasonable expectation is that my wife and I will stay together for the rest of our lives. Tell me how long we need to go so you can start the calisthenics.

quote:

Originally posted by hudson the snowman:
You kendo, having been married for 17 years, are in the extreme minority, sadly. Unfortunately, most children grow up in broken homes, and unfortunately, most marriages end in divorce. Those are the cold hard facts, look it up.

Well, since you invited me to: In 2005, the most recent year for which statistics are available the divorce rate was 3.6 per 1000, the lowest rate since 1970. 63% of all children grow up with both biological parents. That is a low figure compared with other Western nations, but is not, by any measure, the majority. Too many and too much, by my measure, but your post made it clear that everybody is selfish, every woman wants diamonds, and everyone but you and your mother are materialistic bastards, that ruin Christmas.

Eric's description of his Christmas is very much like mine, and, I think, much more reflective of the adult sense of the holiday. (With the exception, for me, of getting drunk, since I don't )

I will agree that there is too much materialism that has been blended into Christmas, particularly by people and companies who's financial interests are tied into the holiday. My point, however, is that one has a choice. One doesn't have to buy into the craziness. Don't hate on the holiday, and people who love it. Make the holiday yours, on your terms. Get married, stay married, take care of your kids. Make your life your own, on your terms.

I am too old and too experienced to be naive, hudson. Something tells me I'm old enough to be your father. I wish I could be