How does everybody feel about Christmas? I know that it is a holiday for when "Jesus" was born, but the date has been discredited by most Christians. Doestn't is seem like it crosses the boundaries between church and state. Another thing is that it seems nobody cares about the symoblism really, the only part that Americans seem to care about is the gifts. Holidays are so commercial.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: Mike Angelo,
Posts: 3505 | Location: Strange Days | Registered: 18 October 2004
I totally agree that it violates the separation of church and state, but Christmas has trancended it's original purpose. Now, it's about giving, recieving, and buying. I think it's good for nearly everyone to get two weeks off in the middle of the school year. It's a nice relaxing break from the monotony. So, which it may no longer be a holiday solely to celebrate the birth of Jesus, it is important to the courtry's culture, and it should stay.
None of that made sense.
I reserve the right to be entirely wrong.
Posts: 253 | Location: Kansas | Registered: 20 June 2004
The thing is that our form of government/way of life is based on commercialism (or capitalism.) These holidays feed into everything which makes our way of life "better" than heathen socialists. I don't really want to get into this now, but since I believe some will take offense, and since I believe your intent was for some to take offense, I'll just say a few more things and then throttle myself.
I don't really know of any mainstream Christian groups who "discredit" Christmas. Jesus would have been born in the Spring, based on every thing in the Bible and recorded about the times. The use of December was a way for the early church to accept more "heathens" into the fold who worshipped their own gods at that time, but they were being added through military conquest and conversion.
I'm about ready to throttle myself, but as far as Church/State discussions go, I don't really see a problem. Yes, several people go to Church and the day means something to them, but you already said the day was about something else. Hell, Charles Dickens said the same thing about 150 years ago.
The day is really about family. You won't begrudge a national holiday about that, will you? If it's renamed National Family Day, would that be OK? National Holidays are a relatively recent occurrence, and they are politically-motivated, so I understand your concern. You do enjoy the days off, don't you? Everything isn't a big, religious-right conspiracy. If it were, they and you might REALLY be surprised who they're supporting. GGrrrggrrrr!!! (Die, mofo heathen commie!)
"Naked Woman, Naked Man Where did you get that nice sun tan?"
Posts: 12874 | Location: Behind the Orange Curtain | Registered: 14 May 2004
If it was National Family Day it would be acceptable, but it is not it is CHRISTmas. The would "Christ" is directly in the name. I enjoy the day off but I do not like either reasons for it. I do not enjoy the fact that it was supposed to be a religious holiday. I also do not enjoy that it is now a holiday where you waste months saving money for a holiday that is based on religion. And of course when you have children you cannot have them be the only children in their school who does not celebrate a holiday, so there is no escaping it.
quote:I don't really know of any mainstream Christian groups who "discredit" Christmas. Jesus would have been born in the Spring, based on every thing in the Bible and recorded about the times.
You said it yourself "Jesus" was born in Spring, that is all that I meant when I said that it was discredited. I, of course, meant no offense by my comments just stating my thoughts on the subject. I think I am going to make my signature something along the lines of "No offense" seems that I must say this at least once a day.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: Mike Angelo,
Posts: 3505 | Location: Strange Days | Registered: 18 October 2004
Mike, you must be one of those guys that wants to rename the cities of Santa Barbara, Corpus Christi, Los Angeles, San Franciso, San Diego, etc. to elmiinate any possible religious implications, huh? Take god off of the money, etc.? Sorry that you feel so uncomfortable.
Posts: 314 | Location: Cali | Registered: 14 May 2004
It doesn't make me uncomfortable. I just think that if we were the diverse nation that Americans claim to live in, we would not have a government supported religion. I do think that god needs to be taken off both currency and the pledge of allegience, because that proves my point, the american government supports christianity. The amendment for church and state is constantly ignored, but so are most of the other amendments as well. Why does the government even bother to make amendments if they do not intend on following them. For example, not allowing homosexuals to marry. But that is for another discussion.
Posts: 3505 | Location: Strange Days | Registered: 18 October 2004
I'm jewish and i celebrate christmas. I dont really care that christmas is supposed to be only for Christians. They never really advertise Jesus with christmas themes or anything like that. It's just a time to get a break and have fun. Yes, maybe it is all commercial, but does that hurt anyone, Christmas brings so much happiness and fun to so many kids across America and other countries.
Posts: 635 | Location: California | Registered: 24 August 2004
quote:They never really advertise Jesus with christmas themes or anything like that.
I'm sure you've seen more than a couple of nativity scenes in your lifetime. And the fact that it is commercial hurts many. What about people on or below the poverty level who are forced to go further in debt due to the fact that Christmas is such a commercial holiday.
Posts: 3505 | Location: Strange Days | Registered: 18 October 2004
Mike, you need to do some reading into the Supreme Court's treatment of the Establishment Clause within the context of Freedom of/from Religion. It's much more complex than you make it out to be. You can't ignore, however, that this country's laws, at least, are founded on a judeo-christian "philosophy."
All this being said, if you truly are offended by the presence of religion in the United States, I'm sorry that's the case. Religion and faith in general, I'm sure, would be a difficult thing to grasp were you not raised in a particular faith. At least you aren't persecuted for your non-belief in the country. That's a good thing!
Posts: 314 | Location: Cali | Registered: 14 May 2004
quote:They never really advertise Jesus with christmas themes or anything like that.
I'm sure you've seen more than a couple of nativity scenes in your lifetime. And the fact that it is commercial hurts many. What about people on or below the poverty level who are forced to go further in debt due to the fact that Christmas is such a commercial holiday.
People arent forced to celebrate Christmas. They do it for the happiness it brings to the children, the time of coming together with family. As you said, it is commerical, it isnt really about Christ anymore.. It isnt neccesarily a time of faith and religion, its a time of love and family.
Posts: 635 | Location: California | Registered: 24 August 2004
quote:it isnt really about Christ anymore.. It isnt neccesarily a time of faith and religion, its a time of love and family.
But it is based around Christianity. Capitalism has turned it into something else but it will always be ingrained within Christianity.
quote:You can't ignore, however, that this country's laws, at least, are founded on a judeo-christian "philosophy."
But they should no longer be that way. America advertises this idea that it accepts all religions or lack thereof, but it still has laws based upon one religion. It was not only founded upon Christian philosophy, most of our laws are still based upon it. As much as you can deny it the simple truth is that the government is still incorporated religion in all of its decisions. The Supreme Court can force other courts to take down the Ten Commandments but it cannot make decisions without the help of religious beliefs.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: Mike Angelo,
Posts: 3505 | Location: Strange Days | Registered: 18 October 2004
But they should no longer be that way. America advertises this idea that it accepts all religions or lack thereof, but it still has lawas based upon one religion. It was not only founded upon Christian philosophy, most of our laws are still based upon it. As much as you can deny it the simple truth is that the government is still incorporated religion in all of its decisions. The Supreme Court can force other courts to take down the Ten Commandments but it cannot make decisions without the help of religious beliefs.
The fact of the matter is, the laws are the will of the majority, and the majority happens to be christians. There are worse things to compliain about than the fact that the happiest time of year is based on a Christian holiday. It can't be that difficult for your own celebrations to exclude Jesus....
I reserve the right to be entirely wrong.
Posts: 253 | Location: Kansas | Registered: 20 June 2004
I swore to myself that I wouldn't do this, but can you tell me a single thing that Jesus was ever quoted as saying that actually bothers you? I believe that your problems arise from the fact that others want to cram something down your throat. Now, calmly and patiently, knowing that we're on your side, what is it about Jesus's message of love and inclusion that bothers you? Phony blowhards don't count; just what did J say which proves he's a false idol? (Feel free not to answer, since it's your ***-given right.)
"Naked Woman, Naked Man Where did you get that nice sun tan?"
Posts: 12874 | Location: Behind the Orange Curtain | Registered: 14 May 2004
He is a great idol, better than most people would make, I have nothing against the idea of Jesus. What I dislike is making laws, church and state, and then just abandoning it. CHRISTmas is a Christian holiday adopted by business to promote sales. The government made it a national holiday and gives everybody the day off, therefore it is obvious that it is supporting Christianity. Nobody gets Rosh Hashanah or Yom Kippur off. Nobody gets Ramadan off. That is my point, the government is neglecting its own law by allowing CHRISTmas to be a national holiday.
---------------------------------- I'm so hip I have difficulty seeing over my pelvis.
"This is the day, your life will surely change This is the day, when things fall into place"
quote:Originally posted by Mike: He is a great idol, better than most people would make, I have nothing against the idea of Jesus. What I dislike is making laws, church and state, and then just abandoning it. CHRISTmas is a Christian holiday adopted by business to promote sales. The government made it a national holiday and gives everybody the day off, therefore it is obvious that it is supporting Christianity. Nobody gets Rosh Hashanah or Yom Kippur off. Nobody gets Ramadan off. That is my point, the government is neglecting its own law by allowing CHRISTmas to be a national holiday.
This might be off topic, but I get Rosh Hashanah and Yum Kippur off at my private school. I understand your point though that everyone gets the holiday off but arent most holidays based around religion? What is wrong for letting school out because the large majority of the people are going to celebrate a holiday. I also hate that religion and government arent totally seperated, but when they take off this break, the majority of the time, they call it winter break, not Christmas break.
Posts: 635 | Location: California | Registered: 24 August 2004
Well, part of it is that such a large percentage of the work force would take that day off anyway for religious leave, that there's no real reason to keep most businesses open.
And I see where you are coming from on the name thing. I guess my only advice is to call it X-Mas instead....
I reserve the right to be entirely wrong.
Posts: 253 | Location: Kansas | Registered: 20 June 2004
RayRay I took your advice, and I found this in the first amendment,
quote:"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
Later in a letter by Jefferson he wrote
quote:"I contemplate with solemn reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church and State"
I am no lawyer RayRay which I know that you are, so tell me if I am wrong, but I believe under these circumstances I was correct in what I was saying. I repeat correct me if I am wrong. Some occasions that violate this writen law were as follows:
quote:An Alabama judge regularly opens his court sessions with a Christian prayer. Further, he has refused to remove a plaque containing the Ten Commandments from his courtroom wall. Alabama Governor Fob James has threatened to call in the Alabama National Guard to prevent the plaque's removal. Local municipalities have erected nativity scenes, crosses, menorahs and other religious symbols to the exclusion of those of other faiths. The Board of Aldermen of a Connecticut city has opened its sessions with a prayer that beseeches citizens to "elect Christian men and women to office so that those who serve will be accountable . . . to the teachings of Jesus Christ . . . ." A variety of religious groups are demanding that their faith-based social service programs receive public funding although these programs engage in aggressive proselytizing and religious indoctrination. On the "National Day of Prayer," local authorities acting in their official capacities have led citizens in sectarian prayer.
Wouldn't Christmas cross this line?
Posts: 3505 | Location: Strange Days | Registered: 18 October 2004
quote:Originally posted by philosopherEric: I'm not going to get as deep into this as you guys, but here's a few of my thoughts on the matter:
1. Christmas has definite religious connotations, but it's got to be considered, by now, to be as much of a secular holiday as, say, Thanksgiving. Even though roughly 60% of our country admits to being religious, I doubt that all of those people CELEBRATE Christmas as a religious holiday.
2. Personally, as an agnostic, I'm not offended by religious holidays. Any atheist or agnostic who thinks they should be free of all religious expressions in their lives is asking a whole lot. If the fact that Christmas is a national holiday is that offensive to you, I doubt there's anything that will assuage you. But every other holiday will find someone else who opposes it as you do (Thanksgiving, 4th of July, Halloween). It begins the slide towards a "holiday free zone." Even the WORD "holiday" has its roots in religion...it's a HOLY DAY.
3. While RayRay is right about the founding fathers having some religious ends, I think the arguments from original intent are shaky, at best. If you want to use the argument that the founding fathers were endorsing, subtly or directly, religion, you also need to look at some of the other values they would have endorsed: racism, misogyny, slavery, the domination by white-property owning males of everyone else, imperialism. But, if we turn our eyes away from this, we're not sticking to true "original intent." We're just cherry-picking the parts we like.
Posts: 3875 | Location: ATL, GA | Registered: 25 May 2004
You make many valid points PE, nothing that I can refute. I sort of agree that it may be too much to ask, but it was just a thought. However, I do think that if the government bothers to follow written law it might as well abide by them.
Posts: 3505 | Location: Strange Days | Registered: 18 October 2004
Mike, when I suggested you look into the Establishment Clause, I didn't mean to simply read it. Yes, it says that the govt. shant establish any particular religion, but what does that mean?? Volumes of case law have been produced on the subject, the the Supremes have never ruled that Christmas Day, a national holiday, violates the clause.
Comparing Christmas Day to installing a 1/2 structure of the 10 Commandments in a courthouse isn't helpful as they are quite different situations. There are hundreds of examples of what does and does not violate the clause. The controlling test is from Lemon v. Kurtzman, but even that test is not completely intuitive in its application.
Posts: 314 | Location: Cali | Registered: 14 May 2004
It can't be that difficult for your own celebrations to exclude Jesus....
