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This is just not true. Theories are built based on available empirical evidence as a way to explain the way the world works. Theories are never really 'proved' in the sense that you seem to be discussing, they are merely (and I don't mean this to be deflationary) explanations of data which have not been disproved. It is really important to keep this in mind I think, because if you want to intelligently engage with religious believers from the standpoint of evolution, the fact that is a theory is crucial. I think one of the problems with religious belief is that it is not a theory-based belief system. As such it is not open to revision in light of our best current empirical evidence. when you start going down the road of evolution as fact, you risk sounding less like a scientifically minded believer and more like a religious believer.

You're right. No need to argue that. We agree that theories are subject to endless revision. I was attempting to separate it from its unfortunate colloquialism that has been confusing people for generations. Evidently I did a poor job.

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"That's not God, that's Santa Claus" or "God is hateful & vindictive" or "God is a chauvinist pig", that's not showing critisizm or skeptisizm.

It shows the latter, at the very least. How about this: God is vague.

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when you start going down the road of evolution as fact, you risk sounding less like a scientifically minded believer and more like a religious believer.

We can agree that theories are subject to revision, but evolution is still both a fact and a theory. There's a difference between the mechanism of evolution, which is the theory, and the idea that gene frequencies change over time. The latter, scientists know for a fact. Therefore, evolution happens.

Here's a link Evolution as a face and a theory.

This is why we can't begin to call evolution a belief. Belief implies faith; faith implies religion. Science isn't religion, of course.

That last link looks very familiar.

I liked P-Bo's last post because it added new perspective. Maybe anecdotes are data afterall.

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Originally posted by drbanality:
This is why we can't begin to call evolution a belief. Belief implies faith; faith implies religion. Science isn't religion, of course.

It seems there is a misunderstanding here. When I said that I don't put down your beliefs, I wasn't talking about "belief in evolution". I was refering to the fact that you DON'T believe in God. I don't attack your choice NOT to believe in God, but you CAN'T show ME the same respect.

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It shows the latter, at the very least.

By the way, it is possible top be skeptical without being rude or condescending.

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How about this: God is vague.

Once again, WHY DO YOU FEEL YOU NEED TO SAY ANYTHING AT ALL?! This is my question & it STILL hasn't been answered! Do I make a point to point out I think your ideals are stupid to me?

I've said it before & I'll say it again: I don't have a problem with evolution. If it was proven, without a doubt, that we did indeed evolve from a primordial soup. Okay. Fine. It doesn't threaten my belief in God whatsoever.

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Originally posted by Monkey_Boy:
Once again, WHY DO YOU FEEL YOU NEED TO SAY ANYTHING AT ALL?!

Because ignorance is bad.

FYI, if you really wanted everyone to shut up about their beliefs, even creating this thread was the pinnacle of hypocrisy.

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Once again, WHY DO YOU FEEL YOU NEED TO SAY ANYTHING AT ALL?! This is my question & it STILL hasn't been answered! Do I make a point to point out I think your ideals are stupid to me?

Why are you holding this so close to you? It was merely an observation: "God is vague."

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By the way, it is possible top be skeptical without being rude or condescending.

It's also possible to talk evolution without getting offended by everything.

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Once again, WHY DO YOU FEEL YOU NEED TO SAY ANYTHING AT ALL?!

Listen, we live in a world where people are still arguing against eons of evolution based purely on faith and unreason. Only 20% (or is it 30?) of Americans concede that evolution happens. That's frightening. It's not that I need to say anything. It's that people are being taught that man evolved from apes, and those who decide to flaunt their creationist pedantry would have everybody believe they know enough about evolution to refute it. The fact is that no matter how much science is thrown in a creationist's face, and no matter how much empirical evidence is unearthed, creationists will always perform their acrobatics. Never mind that any reasonable scientist would admit to the Christian God if he was discovered by empirical evidence. The scientist would humble themselves, but most--in America, at least--might go so far as to say "I told ya so!" So what's condescending? Isn't it about time that the science-minded individuals stopped putting up with it, and started venting their anger through more literature like The God Delusion or The End of Faith?

To clarify, I agree with keylimetrev's assertion that theories aren't solid facts. That's something about which I was mistaken. Evolution is still a fact, though.

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That last link looks very familiar.

I didn't notice that. Consider my post a reminder, then.

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Originally posted by drbanality:
Why are you holding this so close to you? It was merely an observation: "God is vague."

It's also possible to talk evolution without getting offended by everything.

I'm not holding it close or anything like that. I'm also not offended by anything that is within the discussion. It's just something I've noticed here & there and I just figured I'd finally ask why you, seemingly, need to do it, is all. It's not like I come into these kinds of threads & say, "Athiest's ideals are stupid. They live their lives in ignorance!" just out of the blue! We have different beliefs. You DON'T believe in a God. I DO. So what? I have athiest friends & they don't make a point to remind me of it everytime we get together. There are even a couple I didn't even know were athiest for years!

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It's that people are being taught that man evolved from apes, and those who decide to flaunt their creationist pedantry would have everybody believe they know enough about evolution to refute it. The fact is that no matter how much science is thrown in a creationist's face, and no matter how much empirical evidence is unearthed, creationists will always perform their acrobatics.

Well, it's as I said, this wasn't a religious debate, at least, it wasn't for me. I linked a Creationist site because I was forced to pick a side, but my MAIN concern is HOW we evolved. THIS is where my confusion lies: "The basic idea is that it IS pretty amazing that we, and pretty much, only we have managed to evolve this kind of difference. You can come closer to seeing a natural progression towards flight, scales, fur, etc., but there is a slight disconnect when it comes to the intelligence we have, where we've evolved something that nobody, even our closest animal relatives have, an ability that has allowed us to create complex tools and fire, to be so self aware, and to actually be able to rationally debate evolution. While a person could not do these things without the help of other humans to teach us, we have managed to accomplish them as a species, which no other species has really succeeded at." This is something that has never, fully, been explained to me. There have been little mentions of a gene that ONLY we have developed upon, but when I asked how it is WE, as a species, are the only ones to put stress upon this area, all I get is, "We evolved it." Isn't that simple little statement the same as saying "God did it." There is no explanation in either one. Is it that my questions are still unknown to scientists, or do they not really care about this part of the discussion?

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So what's condescending? Isn't it about time that the science-minded individuals stopped putting up with it, and started venting their anger through more literature like The God Delusion or The End of Faith?

But why? I've put up with racism and I don't hate black & whites for it. (I'm pretty sure racism has done alot more damage than religion. Especially in recent times. Why aren't you more pissed about that?) I don't feel the need to run up to racists & exclaim, "I'M MIXED! WHAT OF IT?!". Not only because I'm afraid I'll get my @ss kicked again , but because I KNOW it won't change their opinion. Now, if one attacks me or makes a remark, we have a problem, but if not, I just go my merry way. But to just come in & make these comments, it doesn't make any sense to me. Not one Christian, here, has outright attacked the ideals of any person in this forum (at least, not without apologizing, afterwards), but the atheists can't seem to get enough of it. Whether we talk from personal experiences or the Bible (in the religion thread), every single time, we're wrong. You're right. Have you ever convinced anyone who really believes in a God you're right? What's the point besides anger & frustration towards those who aren't even here?

quote:

Originally posted by Monkey_Boy:


I It's just something I've noticed here & there and I just figured I'd finally ask why you, seemingly, need to do it, is all... I have athiest friends & they don't make a point to remind me of it everytime we get together. There are even a couple I didn't even know were athiest for years!

I'm pretty sure racism has done alot more damage than religion. Especially in recent times. Why aren't you more pissed about that?

Ummm. 'Cuz this is the religion vs evolution thread?

If you want me to get pissed off about racism (and sexism, and homophobia, and other forms of intolerance) you could start a "Racism: Is it a good idea?" thread. I'd post the hell outta that one.

Monkey, I'm not sure if I told you this, but I love you just as much as I love any other 'regular' that I have conversations with. Having said that when it comes to these conversations though, your words are often polarizing.

As I pointed out earlier, you say that you created this thread with no religious intentions. It is pretty standard that any qualms against evolution are going to be stemmed by religious thought. Your proclamation that you scientifically want to debate evolution is silly. As neither you or I have backgrounds in evolutionary research, I can only go by what the overwhelming majority of scientists are telling me is true, and then read about the processes they believe to exist through over a century of research.

We have plenty of evidence that natural selection occurs, which has already been discussed. So using deductive reasoning, one can say that if an animal can change one thing about itself in order to adapt to its environment, over time the animal will be drastically different.

You claim superiority in that us 'athiest' (I don't know how many times I've made you aware of the distinction between athiesm and skepticism) love attacking your personal beliefs. I have to disagree wholeheartedly with you there. While I may not worship evolutionary principles or science in general, when someone makes widely nonsensical remarks about highly regarded scientific fact on the argument that "It doesn't make sense" to you, I get offended. The fact that you are a 'Christian' is coincidence in that, I would say the exact same things about Christianity while not in your presence. Therefore, I'm not directing my words at your beliefs, I'm directing them at the beliefs.

You also seem to take issue due to fact that we are having this discussion, which is funny. All of us here are consenting to have this discussion and questioning why we 'Athiests' take part in it, while you still actively engage us is absurd. We take part in this discussion for the very same purposes as you do (unless you feel that you are 'defending' 'God') to express our opinions and voice our dismay about the 'other side.'

With regards to your comment about racism being more harmful than religion, you're wrong simply because, in many cases, religion is the cause of xenophobia and racism.

Again, I love ya'

If you want to put all of your questions on a list instead of including them in your paragraphs and paragraphs of text, I'll be more than happy to answer them to the best of my ability in order to proverbally 'fill in the blanks' for you.

Edited because my writing is a mess

This message has been edited. Last edited by: St. Mike,

I think what has been brought up, over and over again, at both this thread and the Friendly Religion thread, is that the people who still have some questions about evolution are concerned with our beginning and our end. This is nothing new, and it's also why religions tend to address these matters. It's just when some sectarian humanists (sounds like a religion to me) discuss it, they have no problems with the begining and end. I realize that God can be seen as a crutch to "get the ball rolling", but as P-Bo said, where in the hell did everything come from? I find it difficult to accept that it came from a totally-physical world. However, that has nothing to do with why I believe what I do, but I've never once been convinced by an evolutionist's concept of the "Beginning of the Universe".

Not that I have to mention it, but the ending of the Universe sounds pretty weird too. After it ends, is it going to start over because based on the concept of their concept of the beginning, it's highly possible, yet it's hard for me, perhaps just like P-Bo. (I've said this before all over these forums.)

So, some of us are more concerned about the big picture rather than just natural selection and life on Earth. Shut the Flying F Up, mark!

It's a fair point, but -

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So, some of us are more concerned about the big picture rather than just natural selection and life on Earth.

- this is after all the evolution thread
Although it might be a good idea to start a thread about theoretical physics and god.

You may very well be fairer than I am, but every class in evolution I've ever taken and taught discusses the beginning and the end of the world and universe, so I believe I'm in the proper thread.

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Posted by mark f
where in the hell did everything come from? I find it difficult to accept that it came from a totally-physical world.

Why so grasshopper?

Everything around us is physical.

I see no super/supra- nature.

Why you cannot believe this young paduan?

You can see back to the beginning of everything and knew it was there all along? Where did it come from, and how did the Laws of Gravity become a Law out of chaos?

If matter has always existed, doesn't that make matter your god (creator)? It may be mindless and impersonal, but it's responsible for bringing about all that we can see in this universe.

Ish, correct me if I'm wrong, but I get the impression that you believe in a finite universe with an infinite timeline, whereas I believe the opposite. Or do you also believe in a finite timeline? If so, what came first: the universe or time? Or did they both initiate each other?

When it comes to "The Beginning" or "The End" I don't hold the current concepts in particularly high regard. I just don't see it plausible to have that type of knowledge while we remain on one miniscule piece, Earth, of a rather large puzzle, The Universe.

marky mark.
You ask how gravity became a law from chaos.
I suggest reading up on Higgs fields and the research done by Alan Guth into the big bang.
In the beginning, or sometime after lunch, Gravity acted in a repulsive manner, not its usual attractive gig, and thus the Higgs field was able to harness energy and quickly inflate it, The universe cooled and laws began to establish themselves through normal physical phenomena.

Hey there SDF.
You wrote

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Ish, correct me if I'm wrong, but I get the impression that you believe in a finite universe with an infinite timeline, whereas I believe the opposite. Or do you also believe in a finite timeline? If so, what came first: the universe or time? Or did they both initiate each other?

I would probably argue both are finite. I believe in the superstring theory, which by its nature gives limits, but an infinite loop of limits....I think...

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Originally posted by Mike:
Your proclamation that you scientifically want to debate evolution is silly. As neither you or I have backgrounds in evolutionary research, I can only go by what the overwhelming majority of scientists are telling me is true, and then read about the processes they believe to exist through over a century of research.

Well, I'm sorry. I guess I thought you knew more than ya do. You seem to have such an understanding of it. I didn't mean to make assumptions.

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You claim superiority in that us 'athiest' love attacking your personal beliefs. I have to disagree wholeheartedly with you there. While I may not worship evolutionary principles or science in general, when someone makes widely nonsensical remarks about highly regarded scientific fact on the argument that "It doesn't make sense" to you, I get offended. The fact that you are a 'Christian' is coincidence in that, I would say the exact same things about Christianity while not in your presence. Therefore, I'm not directing my words at your beliefs, I'm directing them at the beliefs.

Aren't I doing the same thing when I question evolution? I'm not personally attacking your belief system (or whatever you wanna call it), I'm only asking questions. Besides, how do you expect it to ever make any sense to me if I don't ask questions? (Why read about it when I can just ask you guys? )Thanks to all of my questions, I do understand it alot more. It's the whole going from a mindless beast into an intelligent human that has me a tad stumped.

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(I don't know how many times I've made you aware of the distinction between athiesm and skepticism)

While the comments may be skeptical, they are in an atheist tone.

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All of us here are consenting to have this discussion and questioning why we 'Athiests' take part in it, while you still actively engage us is absurd. We take part in this discussion for the very same purposes as you do... to express our opinions and voice our dismay about the 'other side.'

All I've done is ask why you feel the need to say the things ya do. That's all. I'm not judging you, or even angry. Just curious, is all. Should I NOT ask you anything & create my own assumptions on why you guys do things, or would you prefer I ask so I have a better understanding where you're coming from? I'd rather ask instead of saying, "They only do it to be hateful.", because I know, for the most part, you can't be doing it just for that reason.

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With regards to your comment about racism being more harmful than religion, you're wrong simply because, in many cases, religion is the cause of xenophobia and racism.

I KNEW you were gonna say this! We've also talked about this subject before. People who hate don't NEED religion, but will use it as an exscuse to do it. Even in your "Perfect World Without Religion", racism, homophobia, Xenomorph xenophobia, & sexism would ALL still be here. People would just hollar a slightly different tune as to WHY it's okay for them to do it. Anyway, having grown up with it, I would still say it is one of the worst things people do & those that fought me over my race/races didn't mention God once. In fact, I did get into it with an atheist that became angry & called me a "stupid n*gger" for believeing what I do! What was his motivation for it if he wasn't religious?

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Again, I love ya'

I love all of you guys, too, and I don't mean to piss anyone off or to go in circles, but, like with the whole discussion on why you attack Christian beliefs worse than other religions, I just wanted a clearer picture on your thought process. Whether it was just a "natural reflex" or if you truly felt you had to type these things. That's all. I still don't see why it MUST be done, but I guess I can understand why ya do it a little more now. Which is why I brung this subject up in the first place. If I really was offended, or just didn't like you guys, I'd leave & never come back. I wouldn't ask why.

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If you want to put all of your questions on a list instead of including them in your paragraphs and paragraphs of text, I'll be more than happy to answer them to the best of my ability in order to proverbally 'fill in the blanks' for you.

Sorry 'bout that . I'm a talker/typer ! I didn't really ask very many questions this time, but here they are:
1. Aren't I doing the same thing when I question evolution?
2. Besides, how do you expect it to ever make any sense to me if I don't ask questions?
3. Should I NOT ask you anything & create my own assumptions on why you guys do things, or would you prefer I ask so I have a better understanding where you're coming from?
4. In fact, I did get into it with an atheist that became an