quote:

Originally posted by hudson:


Birds (class Aves) are bipedal, warm-blooded, egg-laying vertebrate animals. Birds evolved from theropod dinosaurs during the Jurassic, and the earliest known bird is the Late Jurassic Archaeopteryx.
Well, if you factor in the Ice Age, evolution from theropods(dino) into our current species of birds would be impossible. How does an Archaeopteryx evolve into a current species bird if the Archaeopteryx is long since extinct? Am I missing something?

Yeah, pretty much thousands of articles in peer reviewed journals, and the theories and observations of thousands of well trained biologists on the evolution of birds. That said, and in the interest of full and honest disclosure, not all scientists agree on the therapod to bird connection, and, that, in no way impacts the scientific fact of evolution.

I understand that the argument from authority has it's problems, But the fact is that simple failure to understand what is, after all, a complex science in no way suggests that you should go ahead and place all of your belief in a personal, omniscient, omnipotetent God that hears your prayers, and rewards your good behaviour, and punishes you when you're bad, and protects you while you're sleeping. That's not god, people, that's Santa Claus.

quote:

That's not god, people, that's Santa Claus.

The ever famous quote.

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Not really, because you believe these theories as fact.

Theories are widely accepted facts. That they're called theories doesn't say anything about the idea in question.

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I will start by saying I'm not sure we evolved from an ape-like creature.

If you think the thread title didn't say enough about your lack of scientific knowledge, then just consult this sentence.

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Not for any religious reason, but I have trouble believeing humans evolved to what we currently are because there are no examples of this kind of drastic transformation in mind & body in nature.

Yes there are, everywhere. That we're not evolving as quickly as bacteria multiplies (that is, in front of the eye) doesn't support this faulty reasoning. And anybody who purports that evolution is immediate has probably only perused a few words of the definition of "Evolution" in Webster's College Dictionary. It's not immediate. There is time involved, and lots of it--billions of years, in fact. The reason I say there are examples everywhere is because I've heard so many arguments against evolution coming from the most random places. For instance, the eye argument.

If you've never heard this one, then you will now:

People are flabbergasted by the human eye. Naysayers ask "how can something so perfect have evolved by mere chance?" Two things: Evolution is neither chance nor is the eye perfect. Evolution is paired with the term "natural selection," which means the fittest to survive are naturally "selected." That things are selected means little chance is involved--we are necessarily this way because environmental factors (over billions of years) have made us this way. Picture a large, complex tree with branches pointing in every direction, and on this tree there are little twigs that protrude from the bigger branches: just pluck the leaves in your imagination and you should have the image I'm trying to convey. Every branch and twig represents a species. Ones on the lower end of the tree have long since died off. On the top branches are species that have lived on up to now. People today are content to look at the ape, read somewhere in a magazine that their DNA correlates 98% with ours, and concludes that science is trying to teach people we evolved from apes. We have similar ancestors; we didn't evolve from them.

Second, the eye. We have a blind spot, an imperfection. Many of us also develop vision problems throughout life and have to get eyeglasses or contact lenses. Eyes of all varieties exist in the wild. Deep sea animals lack eyes because evolution dictates that they don't need them. The eagle has a far superior eye to ours, placing us way below the bar of perfection. Even an eagle's eye isn't perfect: an octopus eye is superior even to that. I don't know how or why these arguments against evolution still exist. It doesn't make sense to try to disprove it. Revise it, perhaps, and find more data on it, but disprove it? That actually doesn't make sense.

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If we are the result of evolution, why are there no other examples of this in nature?

Instead of fingering through the propaganda, try scientific journals and inquire about this sort of thing with a scholarly, objective mind. Evolution is as evident, as another poster here said, as gravity. It does exist everywhere in every species, and different levels of it, too. Don't content yourself with such surface arguments.

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When birds evolved, they stayed birds, they just developed longer beaks or bigger wings or stronger legs.

Arguments like this.

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This is true for every animal in nature. They all still look like their ancestors.

Or this. And what a straw man this is. We all began from elementary particles. Birds did, too. As Carl Sagan liked to say, we are all built from "starstuff."

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I understand that the argument from authority has it's problems, But the fact is that simple failure to understand what is, after all, a complex science in no way suggests that you should go ahead and place all of your belief in a personal, omniscient, omnipotetent God that hears your prayers, and rewards your good behaviour, and punishes you when you're bad, and protects you while you're sleeping. That's not god, people, that's Santa Claus.

I like this very much.

Instead of staying on topic, I'm gonna veere off course just a bit & ask a few questions that have really been bothering me.

quote:

Originally posted by drbanality:
Instead of fingering through the propaganda, try scientific journals and inquire about this sort of thing with a scholarly, objective mind.

Why should I? (Most) Atheists (here) make all sorts assumptions about the Bible, God, & Christians and ask questions we think are just as stupid as the questions I've just asked here, yet they refuse to read the Bible. That's one of the reasons I created this thread. Just so they could see what it's like. The other, was because other threads started getting clogged with this theory (or is it a fact? Sorry, but I still see the two words being completely unrelated.) that really had nothing to do with the main topic. So, I decided to make this one & take the most drastic stance on the subject in order to get some quick feedback. I don't really care one way or the other, I just felt like stirrin' the Kool-Aid, man . I just find it interesting at how personal (some) people seem to take it when you don't believe in it. (Some of) The Atheists here talk about God like no tomorrow with comments like these:

quote:

I understand that the argument from authority has it's problems, But the fact is that simple failure to understand what is, after all, a complex science in no way suggests that you should go ahead and place all of your belief in a personal, omniscient, omnipotetent God that hears your prayers, and rewards your good behaviour, and punishes you when you're bad, and protects you while you're sleeping. That's not god, people, that's Santa Claus.

Or...

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God is a chauvinist pig

Or...

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That's funny considering that religion was created by man in order to fill in the blanks. Well, that and psychedelic drugs played a role as well...

Do I come back & say anything mean spirited about your beliefs? Nooooo. So why continue raggin' on mine? How is my NOT believeing in the same things you believe in hurting the world? Of course, every Atheist brings up the Crusades, but how long ago were they & did I, or any modern Christian, have anything to do with those? Do I believe God had anything to do with those? Do I believe He wants us to hurt anyone? Answer to all 3 questions: Nope. So don't give me that sorry, old exscuse.

quote:

I can't entertain this ridiculous fiasco anymore.

Well, whatta ya know! This very statement expresses why I quit goin' to the Religion thread!

P.S.
By the way, Mike, I know most of those quotes are yours, but I wasn't specifically aiming in your direction. It's just that you have made these kinda comments the most & the others seem to agree with you on every point you make. I'm not picking on you .

Yay!! My favourite thread is resurrected....just like Jebus hey mb?

quote:

Originally posted by Monkey_Boy:
Instead of staying on topic, I'm gonna veere off course just a bit & ask a few questions that have really been bothering me.

quote:

Originally posted by drbanality:
Instead of fingering through the propaganda, try scientific journals and inquire about this sort of thing with a scholarly, objective mind.

Why should I? (Most) Atheists (here) make all sorts assumptions about the Bible, God, & Christians and ask questions we think are just as stupid as the questions I've just asked here, yet they refuse to read the Bible. That's one of the reasons I created this thread. Just so they could see what it's like. The other, was because other threads started getting clogged with this theory (or is it a fact? Sorry, but I still see the two words being completely unrelated.) that really had nothing to do with the main topic. So, I decided to make this one & take the most drastic stance on the subject in order to get some quick feedback. I don't really care one way or the other, I just felt like stirrin' the Kool-Aid, man . I just find it interesting at how personal (some) people seem to take it when you don't believe in it. (Some of) The Atheists here talk about God like no tomorrow with comments like these:

quote:

I understand that the argument from authority has it's problems, But the fact is that simple failure to understand what is, after all, a complex science in no way suggests that you should go ahead and place all of your belief in a personal, omniscient, omnipotetent God that hears your prayers, and rewards your good behaviour, and punishes you when you're bad, and protects you while you're sleeping. That's not god, people, that's Santa Claus.

Or...

quote:

God is a chauvinist pig

Or...

quote:

That's funny considering that religion was created by man in order to fill in the blanks. Well, that and psychedelic drugs played a role as well...

Do I come back & say anything mean spirited about your beliefs? Nooooo. So why continue raggin' on mine? How is my NOT believeing in the same things you believe in hurting the world? Of course, every Atheist brings up the Crusades, but how long ago were they & did I, or any modern Christian, have anything to do with those? Do I believe God had anything to do with those? Do I believe He wants us to hurt anyone? Answer to all 3 questions: Nope. So don't give me that sorry, old exscuse.

quote:

I can't entertain this ridiculous fiasco anymore.

Well, whatta ya know! This very statement expresses why I quit goin' to the Religion thread!

P.S.
By the way, Mike, I know most of those quotes are yours, but I wasn't specifically aiming in your direction. It's just that you have made these kinda comments the most & the others seem to agree with you on every point you make. I'm not picking on you .

It seems that Monkey has lured me out of retirement, although I'm not sure how. It seems that your only new argument is that the majority of those who are openly skeptical towards your beliefs have not read your canon and are making false assumptions about your religious preferences. So here is another attempt at giving a concise and coherent case against not just your religion, but against the hundreds of others that exist.

Firstly, I would like to make you aware that you are actually incorrect with regards to us skeptics not having read the Bible, most of us have. I'm not saying I've read it entirely, but I have read most of it and afterwards studied it and it's fallacies. Moreover, I was a "Christian" for roughly the first fifteen years of my existence and, as a result, I sympathize with your views wholeheartedly.

Religion, to me, is just a result of wishful thinking on the part of humanity. The thought of there being more to our existence, which there may well be, is very romantic and gives hope to a society that will always have it's turmoils in life. The thought of humans having knowledge of a supernatural is farfetched at best. If we are as finite and primitive as we seem, how would we possibly know of an infinite and omnipotent being that created us. As pointed out previously, scientists still do not fully understand our own brain, inevitably, the 'creator' of our being. So the mere concept of having knowledge of a 'creator' of our 'creator' is silly.

In addition, the reality that one religion has not been constant throughout our existence, but thousands of religions and varients illustrates that religion is completely invented and modified by particular locations in certain locations of the world. For instance, your religion, Monkey, Protestantism, has existed a little longer than five hundred years and is one of dozens and dozens of different denominations and sects throughout history.

When you take the factual inaccuracies with the homophobic discrimination and sexism, then add a dash of elitism, you get a societal construct that only inhibits our existence.


On evolution, regardless of what you want to call it, it is the only plausible explanation for our existence, unless your ready to argue that the Earth is less than 10,000 years old, which I wouldn't advise.

Now to your questions:

How is my NOT believeing in the same things you believe in hurting the world? The skeptics inhabiting this site, don't agree on everything, exept, maybe, that religion may be harmful to society for reasons already discussed: discrimination caused by differences in religion, sexism, and homophobia.

Of course, every Atheist brings up the Crusades, but how long ago were they & did I, or any modern Christian, have anything to do with those? Do I believe God had anything to do with those? Do I believe He wants us to hurt anyone? If a supernatural being does exist, it isn't the personal 'God' that many religions claim to have. So my answer is "no" to all three questions simply by default.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: St. Mike,

quote:

Originally posted by Mike:
It seems that Monkey has lured me out of retirement, although I'm not sure how.

It seems we only cross paths whenever religion is involved .

quote:

It seems that your only new argument is that the majority of those who are openly skeptical towards your beliefs have not read your canon and are making false assumptions about your religious preferences.

It's not about your skepticism. It's the snide attitude I get whenever an athieist sniffs a hint of religion around here. I mean, this thread wasn't about religion, but we suddenly get a comparison of God to Santa Claus & several others have to chime in with agreements. I mean, it doesn't offend me, but it's like coming in everyday & reading, "You're an idiot for believeing in God." over & over again. It tends to get on a person's nerves, ya know what I'm sayin'? Honestly, I'm not that rude to you guys.

quote:

Firstly, I would like to make you aware that you are actually incorrect with regards to us skeptics not having read the Bible, most of us have. I'm not saying I've read it entirely, but I have read most of it and afterwards studied it and it's fallacies. Moreover, I was a "Christian" for roughly the first fifteen years of my existence and, as a result, I sympathize with your views wholeheartedly.

Actually, at one point I asked you to look something up (pretty much the same way you guys have told me when it comes to evolution) & you told me you didn't care to. I know you used to be a Christian, which is why I'm surprised you have so many questions... sometimes .

quote:

Religion, to me, is just a result of wishful thinking on the part of humanity. The thought of there being more to our existence, which there may well be, is very romantic and gives hope to a society that will always have it's turmoils in life. The thought of humans having knowledge of a supernatural is farfetched at best. If we are as finite and primitive as we seem, how would we possibly know of an infinite and omnipotent being that created us. As pointed out previously, scientists still do not fully understand our own brain, inevitably, the 'creator' of our being. So the mere concept of having knowledge of a 'creator' of our 'creator' is silly.

Yes, I'm fully aware of your side of the issue. However, those last few sentences are new. If you've mentioned it before, I musta missed that page . This isn't what I wanted to know though. My NEW point was actually: Why do you feel the need to constantly point this out? It kinda reminds me of SDF's question, Why do you want to destroy my Faith? You know, from at least reading my words, that I ain't interested in harming a single person on this Earth in the name of God. So how are you saving the world from me by changing my mind on my beliefs?

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On evolution, regardless of what you want to call it, it is the only plausible explanation for our existence, unless your ready to argue that the Earth is less than 10,000 years old, which I wouldn't advise.

I still don't believe that silly mathematical equation that figures the Earth is 6,000 years old according to the Bible. So you can stop bringing up this point now. Nowhere in the actual Bible does it blatantly say, The Earth is 6,000 years old." There isn't even a hint of it in a single scripture. I see each day equaling millions of years, not 24 hours. We already know it didn't happen in that small amount of time.

quote:

The skeptics inhabiting this site, don't agree on everything, exept, maybe, that religion may be harmful to society for reasons already discussed: discrimination caused by differences in religion, sexism, and homophobia.

Once again, this ain't MY Religion! Try & lump me with the rest if you wanna, but I think I've proven I'm not involved in a single one of those things. Jesus said to LOVE. If you HATE, you ain't of God. Period.

quote:

Of course, every Atheist brings up the Crusades, but how long ago were they & did I, or any modern Christian, have anything to do with those? Do I believe God had anything to do with those? Do I believe He wants us to hurt anyone? If a supernatural being does exist, it isn't the personal 'God' that many religions claim to have. So my answer is "no" to all three questions simply by default.

At least we agree on that much. Even if it is by default...

quote:

Originally posted by Monkey_Boy:
Once again, this ain't MY Religion! Try & lump me with the rest if you wanna, but I think I've proven I'm not involved in a single one of those things. Jesus said to LOVE. If you HATE, you ain't of God. Period.

I know you're a good person,MB. And I realize the majority of Christians are good, reasonable people. But then you have these people, who also claim to be good, devout Christians. You say they're not, but they would say otherwise. Religion can be harmful in the hands of idiots.

P.S. I don't mean to single out Christians either. There are plenty of Muslim extremists killing innocent people around the world who believe they're doing God's work.

quote:

Originally posted by ericg75:
I know you're a good person,MB. And I realize the majority of Christians are good, reasonable people. But then you have these people, who also claim to be good, devout Christians. You say they're not, but they would say otherwise. Religion can be harmful in the hands of idiots.

Those people aren't Christians. If a white guy called himself black (believe me, I've known some to make the claim), it doesn't make it so. Same with them. Jesus said you will know a person's heart through the fruit of their deeds-Matthew 7:15-20 They are wearing a shirt that says "God HATES Fags", but God hates SIN, not people. Yes, they are idiots, & no, they aren't Christian (Christ-like). No matter how much they claim they are, I can tell you, without conviction, God does not recognize these people.

quote:

It's not about your skepticism. It's the snide attitude I get whenever an athieist sniffs a hint of religion around here. I mean, this thread wasn't about religion, but we suddenly get a comparison of God to Santa Claus & several others have to chime in with agreements. I mean, it doesn't offend me, but it's like coming in everyday & reading, "You're an idiot for believeing in God." over & over again. It tends to get on a person's nerves, ya know what I'm sayin'? Honestly, I'm not that rude to you guys.

But this thread is about religion. You act as if you created this thread prior to the knowledge that there is a debate of "Creationism" vs. Evolution. You then made numerous posts whose 'evidence' was presented as Bible quotes. Not about religion? With regards to your claim of rudeness, I would hope that you not take any of our conversations personally. The great majority of the anger is directed at the religion which you happen to be a member, not your personally.

quote:

Actually, at one point I asked you to look something up (pretty much the same way you guys have told me when it comes to evolution) & you told me you didn't care to. I know you used to be a Christian, which is why I'm surprised you have so many questions... sometimes .[/i]At that particular conversation, I was simply telling you that using Bible verses as 'evidence' of God was like using a Harry Potter novel as 'evidence' of wizardry.

[quote] Why do you want to destroy my Faith? You know, from at least reading my words, that I ain't interested in harming a single person on this Earth in the name of God. So how are you saving the world from me by changing my mind on my beliefs?

I haven't really ever wanted to destroy anybodies particular faith, just voice my thoughts on a very important matter. I'm personally not interested in what you choose to believe in, it is your right to think as you wish and I would never want to take that from anybody. A better question may be, Do I believe the world would be better without religion? And to this question, my answer would be yes for reasons already explained.


I HATE ANN COULTER!!!

"God" seems to agree with you a lot Monkey_Boy, ever consider the fact that you may be him? Think about it, either you are a buddha-like representative of christianity, or you are simply imagining "God" to agree with what you believe to be morally right.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike:
But this thread is about religion. You act as if you created this thread prior to the knowledge that there is a debate of "Creationism" vs. Evolution. You then made numerous posts whose 'evidence' was presented as Bible quotes. Not about religion?

Maybe you should go back & read my posts in THIS thread again. I brung up Genesis, once, as a joke to another post, but there were never any scriptures quoted until this discussion. I posted a link to a creationist 'site ONLY because I was kinda forced to pick a side, but I made sure to say that this discussion was NOT ABOUT GOD. I had trouble making sense of it when I was agnostic! Besides, how many times did I actually mention God here? Other than when I said, "This ain't about God."

quote:

With regards to your claim of rudeness, I would hope that you not take any of our conversations personally. The great majority of the anger is directed at the religion which you happen to be a member, not your personally.

I already know this, Mike. I've never felt threatened or offended by anything you've typed, it's just once you or Kendo have typed your little comments, others lay on their own twists & such. Everyone is very quick to hollar tolerance around here, but it doesn't pertain to religious beliefs? If someone says something about homosexuals in any kind of negative light (and they have recently), they are called a bigot & an idiot, people will spend pages slinging as much mud as they can, but people can freely put down another's personal beliefs if they want to? Why is it the door doesn't swing both ways? It's easy to crack on Christians, there are alot of posers who give us a bad name, but nobody can DARE speak ill of any other religion, scientific fact/theory, or ideal because... Well, I don't know the reason.

quote:

]At that particular conversation, I was simply telling you that using Bible verses as 'evidence' of God was like using a Harry Potter novel as 'evidence' of wizardry.

I don't remeber ever making that claim. The conversation I was refering to was when you said you had a problem with some scriptures & I asked you to look 'em up & let me know what your specific concerns were. Once again, when I called your scientific evidence crap (which I posed as a simple question at one point, "How do we know they're right?"), you became quite upset with me. Why is it I'm not supposed to get upset everytime you speak of MY God that way?

quote:

"God" seems to agree with you a lot Monkey_Boy, ever consider the fact that you may be him? Think about it, either you are a buddha-like representative of christianity, or you are simply imagining "God" to agree with what you believe to be morally right.

Is what I'm saying wrong? Does Jesus not say to love your neighbor AND your enemy? Where does He say to kill in the name of God? Where does He say to hate in the name of God? Where does He say to be a jerk in the name of God? I would LOVE to know. Honestly, I would.

I'm starting to see your problem a tad clearer now, I think. It seems you believe that THOSE so-called Christians are what God wants us to be. Sorry, if you truly read the Bible, you'd know they represent God as much as the Sun represents the night. And don't come back with, "Why are your translations right?" They ain't translations. It says it plain & simple. LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR. LOVE & PRAY FOR YOUR ENEMY. YOU WILL KNOW A MAN'S HEART BY THE FRUIT OF HIS DEEDS. IT IS LAWFUL TO DO GOOD ON THE SABBATH. Gee, those could be twisted a whole lot .

These verses actually explain how these people aren't apart of Christianity:
"NOT EVERYONE WHO SAYS TO ME, 'LORD, LORD.' WILL ENTER THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN, BUT ONLY HE WHO DOES THE WILL OF MY FATHER."- Matthew 7:21
"THE GOOD MAN BRINGS GOOD THINGS OUT OF THE GOOD STORED UP IN HIM, & THE EVIL MAN BRINGS OUT THE EVIL STORED UP IN HIM. BUT I TELL YOU THAT MEN WILL HAVE TO GIVE ACCOUNT ON THE DAY OF JUDGMENT FOR EVERY CARELESS WORD THEY HAVE SPOKEN. FOR BY YOUR WORDS YOU WILL BE ACQUITTED, & BY YOUR WORDS YOU WILL BE CONDEMNED."- Matthew 12:35-37

I know you have a problem with punishment, but that's what they face. They are false prophets. Hypocrites. And they turn people from Him everyday.

quote:

Originally posted by Monkey_Boy:Is what I'm saying wrong? Does Jesus not say to love your neighbor AND your enemy? Where does He say to kill in the name of God? Where does He say to hate in the name of God? Where does He say to be a jerk in the name of God? I would LOVE to know. Honestly, I would.

You posted it yourself.

"But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck & to be drowned in the depths of the sea."

Hateful and vindictive, judgmental, uncompromising. Utterly ruthless and unforgiving. Even if I personally believe it's somewhat justified (in the context in which you posted it, anyway), this ain't love. It's hate.

Also, I should note that you're mainly arguing that your (highly subjective) interpretation of the Bible is superior to someone else's. Pretty... arrogant, to be blunt.

I'm almost considering closing the "Best Threads" because it causes people who love to feel differently than love. There is so much to discuss on every single level. I believe the best things to discuss are the ways which people are the same and can agree. That seems really cool and open to the concept of learning through common knowledge.

I'm not sure why, but being an almost-lifelong teacher, I find most people are unable to learn due to three things (and I'm dealing with all three this summer school): 1. They don't believe in learning. Learning is not part of their life or M.O. In fact, if they learned something (other than some idiot lyric to an idiot hiphop song), they would be ostracized by their friends and family (as true as that is, it's even more pathetic!); 2. Kids can't learn, especially during the summer, because they work too much (outside of school), are too tired, don't like Math (that's the "best" and commonest!), come to school hungry, have a headache, don't understand anything to do with Math (although their schools have taught it for 13 years), etc.; 3. Quote (from my students): "I have shown up to my classes for the last three years for almost 50% of the time, but due to all the above reasons and the fact that I need to graduate from high school, you HAVE to pass me becuse I DESERVE it! (especially if I'm absent 25% of summer school and can't tell you what 3 + -7 is!"

Anyway. I think this is relevant. People know what they know, and they don't know what they don't know. If you don't know something, don't judge somebody else, no matter which side (if there is such a thing among loving friends) they are on; just love your friends, at least for as long as you are lucky enough to call them friends.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: mark f,

I don't really want to get into this too much but I just had one thing to say. I know that there are much more people here that are not Christian and are either Atheist or Agnostic. This is fine and I respect that. However, I do feel that many of these people are a bit too disparaging and reproachful when knocking others values. I know that M_B is the one that takes a lot of the heat for his beliefs but I can’t help but think that some of the treatment he gets is excessive.

Everyone has the right to believe what they want and voice it the way they want. But when someone says that "God is Santa" or "God is a pig" I think that some discretion is missing. If Monkey doesn't put down what you believe in a harmful and/or condescending manner, please don't do it to him. Next time just think if you are truly being tactful and as amenable as possible. Not everyone does it but the select few that do and do it often are inexcusable.