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Originally posted by ericg75:

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Originally posted by Monkey_Boy:
How does an animal just make fire? Just curious.

Beat a couple rocks together really hard near some dry grass? Rub some sticks together?

Did God teach us?

According to Genesis, He did

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Originally posted by Monkey_Boy:
According to Genesis, He did

And here I thought you had said your oppositions to evolution weren't based on religion.

if not evolution, then what? ALso, why are people so freaked out about evolution?

It is very sad that the majority of creationists can only question little tiny holes in evidence for evolution, while completely disregarding the fact that there really is no proof for creationism.
You can't disprove a theory like evolution without offering any real alternative.

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Originally posted by Dork:

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Originally posted by Monkey_Boy:
According to Genesis, He did

And here I thought you had said your oppositions to evolution weren't based on religion.

THERE YOU ARE!!!! Eric brung Him up, I just answered his question jokingly.

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Originally posted by rockthief:
if not evolution, then what? ALso, why are people so freaked out about evolution?

Evolution doesn't freak me out. It just makes me wonder how people tend to think this all just happened. That we "just happened" to evolve in this direction, but no other animal has followed the same path doesn't seem to strike anybody else as odd. In the UFO thread there are talks that aliens could have evolved, but it seems strange that this freak occurance of chance could happen more than once & create intelligent life AGAIN. Doesn't it? I mean, I'm pretty sure the odds of that happening are bigger than rolling snake eyes 10 times in a row.

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Originally posted by Monkey_Boy:
Evolution doesn't freak me out. It just makes me wonder how people tend to think this all just happened. That we "just happened" to evolve in this direction, but no other animal has followed the same path doesn't seem to strike anybody else as odd. In the UFO thread there are talks that aliens could have evolved, but it seems strange that this freak occurance of chance could happen more than once & create intelligent life AGAIN. Doesn't it? I mean, I'm pretty sure the odds of that happening are bigger than rolling snake eyes 10 times in a row.

Natural selection is anything but a freak occurrence.

Simply put, better developed brains helped Neanderthals survive better for whatever reason; thus natural selection weeded out the stupid ones and we are left as we are today.

To sum it up, Natural selection != random chance.

If God did create man to be the only superior being, my question is, "Why?" I mean, we live in an infinitely vast universe, and we're it? Why create useless planets that can't sustain life? Furthermore, why create all the other useless animals here on Earth? So we could either eat them, ride them, or sacrifice them to Him? And what about the animals that serve none of those purposes? What good are mosquitoes, for instance? I know you're not supposed to question God's motives, but if it's all part of a plan, it's a pretty illogical plan.

I thought Neanderthals were a seperate line? Are you disagreeing with EricG or was that just an example of a species that didn't survive? Also, just so I'm clear, are you saying that it isn't the way things started that was chance, but Natural Selection IS the Chance that created us to be what we are?

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Originally posted by ericg75:
If God did create man to be the only superior being, my question is, "Why?" I mean, we live in an infinitely vast universe, and we're it? Why create useless planets that can't sustain life? Furthermore, why create all the other useless animals here on Earth? So we could either eat them, ride them, or sacrifice them to Him? And what about the animals that serve none of those purposes? What good are mosquitoes, for instance? I know you're not supposed to question God's motives, but if it's all part of a plan, it's a pretty illogical plan.

Uh-oh. Looks like you wanna take this to the religious thread! Is that it? You wanna step over there?! Huh?! HUH?! I don't think it's been gettin' any action.

I'm jumping back a ways with all of this, but here goes:

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Originally posted by ericg75:

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Originally posted by Monkey_Boy:
How does an animal just make fire? Just curious.

Beat a couple rocks together really hard near some dry grass? Rub some sticks together?

I'm guessing like many discoveries, the first time was an accident. I don't think man set out one day and said, "Damn, I'm going to invent fire."

Does "Survivor" prove de-evolution? Nobody can ever figure out how to start a fire. They need Probst to give them flint.

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Originally posted by ericg75:
I think for a lot of people here, it would be nice if you could actually point to some studies or research that back up some of your arguments against evolution.

That's not fair! Just ask Kendo.

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Originally posted by kendocubano:
It's true that the burden of proof must fall to the believer, imo. The reason is that one cannot logically prove the negative.

Of course you can't flat out disprove it. Just the same as you can't flat out disprove the existence of a creator. But I believe in logic, so that's how I generally base my opinions.

For example: If the Earth is billions of years old and life forms have been gradually evolving throughout this time, wouldn't I be right to assume that if I dig deep enough in my own backyard that I should be able to find plenty of evolutionary fossils? How long does the average animal live? How many generations is that if the Earth is 3-4 billion years old? How many fossils would we expect to be buried in the ground?

Also:
Have we found any architectural or written evidence of man that pre-dates the Biblical timeline?

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Originally posted by SDF:

Also:
Have we found any architectural or written evidence of man that pre-dates the Biblical timeline?

I'd say Biblical times are right around when we were smart enough to write and build houses.

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Originally posted by SDF:
Have we found any architectural or written evidence of man that pre-dates the Biblical timeline?

If you're using the biblical timeline of human existence starting about 6000 years ago, archaeologists have found examples of civilizations predating that timeline. If you consider cave paintings written evidence, we've found cave paintings that are over 30,000 years old.

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Originally posted by SDF:
For example: If the Earth is billions of years old and life forms have been gradually evolving throughout this time, wouldn't I be right to assume that if I dig deep enough in my own backyard that I should be able to find plenty of evolutionary fossils? How long does the average animal live? How many generations is that if the Earth is 3-4 billion years old? How many fossils would we expect to be buried in the ground?

Depending on what lived there at the time and the composition of the soil, the answer is pretty much yes on the whole digging up your backyard bit. But bones don't last forever unless they're preserved.

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Originally posted by SDF:
Also:
Have we found any architectural or written evidence of man that pre-dates the Biblical timeline?

Cave Paintings have been dated to 40,000 years ago.

Monkey: You nicely dodged my argument. I agree with most, if not all of what eric has said. That is not the point.

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Originally posted by Monkey_Boy:
Nature isn't concerned with intelligence, just look how "smart" animals are in the wild. Their brains are pretty much programmed to hunt for food, take care of their young, & to run from predators.

I think you're selling the brains of some animals a little short. Animals have been observed to do a lot of things, including an awareness of patterns and the ability to plan for them. They also do things that we originally percieved as being part of human consciousness, like form social groups and suffer from diseases like anorexia.

Regardless, human minds just advanced further because we had all the free time to evolve in that manner. Once our ancestors learned how to make simple tools, create fire, etc., it automatically put them above other animals in terms of survival. Then you have thousands of years of our caveman versions of ourselves dealing with the change that it no longer necessarily survival of the fittest, but survival of the smartest. So the genes that started being passed down were those with the best observational skills and applied knowledge.

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Why is it you guys like to get smart & throw in mythical creatures? So, you're content to chalk up our entire existence to luck? Soooo, you don't care how it started, just that you KNOW when it happened, & in what way? As for the alien theory, isn't evolution a random occurance? Are we to believe that an alien species somehow mastered time & space, flew all the way here, started the ball rolling, somehow KNOWING what they would end up with & would then never return? OR they return, but under the radar to abduct us, run tests, impregnate/remove fetus', & then drop us back down? All without leaving a speck of evidence. OOOKAY .

Of course I care how it started, but unless we have something to go by, I don't see any reason to believe it was anything other than pure chance until we see evidence otherwise. I'm bringing up the mythical creatures to make a point. Why is that alien scenario hard to believe? Is it any less plausible than some supreme diety in the sky creating a vast universe of nothing just to have one tiny planet of humans on it?

That's my point. The theory of evolution doesn't even ask how life started. It explains how life evolved to this point after it did. If you believe the evolution happened thanks to a guiding hand of an "intelligent designer", that's fine, but that doesn't disprove evolution at all. So far, it's the only theory for life on this planet that makes the most sense, seeing as how all the evidence we have continues to point in that direction. (The discovery of DNA alone pretty much proved Darwin's idea of survival of the fittest right there.)

There's a difference between saying "we don't know how it all started", which is the standpoint of evolution, and saying "we don't know how it all started, therefore it must have all started with an intelligent designer." If you accept the latter, then you can't discount aliens as being the intelligent designer any more than you can God.

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Originally posted by Monkey_Boy:
Evolution doesn't freak me out. It just makes me wonder how people tend to think this all just happened. That we "just happened" to evolve in this direction, but no other animal has followed the same path doesn't seem to strike anybody else as odd. In the UFO thread there are talks that aliens could have evolved, but it seems strange that this freak occurance of chance could happen more than once & create intelligent life AGAIN. Doesn't it? I mean, I'm pretty sure the odds of that happening are bigger than rolling snake eyes 10 times in a row.

You just contradicted yourself. When talking about aliens, you're saying that the chances of intelligent life appearing more than once in the same universe seems odd. This is after saying you can't believe in evolution because the chances of intelligent life appearing less than once on the same planet seems odd.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: kevlarcardhouse,

quote:

Originally posted by SDF:
For example: If the Earth is billions of years old and life forms have been gradually evolving throughout this time, wouldn't I be right to assume that if I dig deep enough in my own backyard that I should be able to find plenty of evolutionary fossils? How long does the average animal live? How many generations is that if the Earth is 3-4 billion years old? How many fossils would we expect to be buried in the ground?

We've been driving our cars around for years thanks to the help of creatures who died billions of years ago.

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We've been driving our cars around for years thanks to the help of creatures who died billions of years ago.

And thus, a lot of fossils are gone...

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Originally posted by kevlarcardhouse:
You just contradicted yourself.

No, I didn't. I was saying that both theories seemed odd. You descibe evolution as chance. Things just happened to be perfect to get the "juices flowing" to start evolution. That somehow, we evolved into the most iventive species on the planet & completely dominated it, all attributed to luck. Then, we have the arguement that this could actually occur twice, to produce aliens, but things would have needed to be equally set up for this "chance" to happen. At the same time, I find it unlikely that aliens kickstarted the evolution of man because, as you guys put it, it's nature that truly puts a new species to the test. I also still have trouble thinking that they are that more advanced than we are. I'd like to think that they are stuck on their planet just like we're stuck on ours.

I'm just spitballin' here, I've had this discussion a hundred times in the religious thread & I pretty much know your side of the issue pretty well. I gave it its own thread because it just keeps popping up over & over again & the UFO thread was even being affected by it! I thank all of you for your input though, it's been fun! You can't learn without asking questions!

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Originally posted by Monkey_Boy:
At the same time, I find it unlikely that aliens kickstarted the evolution of man because, as you guys put it, it's nature that truly puts a new species to the test.

What if God is an alien, similar to Galactus in the Fantastic Four comics, or Q on Star Trek:TNG?

I've actually had the idea Earth was a sort of galactic petri dish: aliens came, swabbed down a culture and bacteria/stuff grew. "Ooh, look at 'em go" they might say. Which would explain us well enough, but it still begs the question where those aliens came from. Creationism begs the question where did God come from but it kind of circumvents it with like..."you'll never understand because it's supernatural and beyond your comprehension" which is awfully convenient.