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Originally posted by mark f:
Carol, I enjoyed your last post. I'm glad we're friends. I hope it will stay that way when I say the following: even Ralph Fiennes is presented as a human. True, he may be the most-inhuman human, but his entire character is presented in the context of not only Schindler, but Embeth Davidtz's character, who has an incredible scene where she explains that she's at fear for her life every second because there's no right or wrong way to act. Maybe Goethe (Fiennes) will kill you, maybe he won't; there are no rules which you can follow to ensure survival. Goethe claims he wants to spend the rest of his life (after the war) with Davidtz, which of course is a horrifying idea for her. But soon enough, he turns the tables on her and calls her several unmentionable names and starts beating her.

Carol, have you seen "Night and Fog", a 30-minute film made 10 years after the "liberation" of Auschwitz? It shows in color what the camp looked like in 1955 and contrasts it with b&w photos and film of what it was like during the war. It is one of the calmest, yet soul-shattering, experiences that any real human can have. The best to you and yours.

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Mark, of course we're still friends. I've looked and looked for a place where I could have an intelligent discussion about films (most of what I've found so far consists of things like, "Kill Bill rules!" and "Brad Pitt is soooo hot!"), so what kind of debate could anyone have if they got honked off by a reasonable opposing opinion?

OK.... Ralph Fiennes was human, just evil (and I believe his character was meant to be EVIL). The most difficult kind of person to deal with is one who is completely unpredictable. Think of the "schizophrenogenic mothers" of the 1950's; they would be nice to their kids at one moment and screaming/shaming/ignoring them the next. (That kind of parent can still mess up a kid, by the way.) I look forward to further jousts and even many agreements!!

I saw Night and Fog way back when I was in college and remember it as a very powerful film.

I actually thought Gladiator was slightly overrated, I mean, Crowe is ok but not Oscar Material, and there are a few cheesy moments.

It's been nagging at me ever since I saw it, Hero. Is it a beautifully made film, without a doubt, but the overall message is very conformist, or should I say communist. I still need to see it again, this time knowing what I'm getting into, and maybe see it with a new perspective. As I watched it I thought to myself, is this movie a sequel to another movie that was already released and I just missed that one, because it feels like most of the character development happened in that "other" movie. The fights, while still engaging, left me wanting, because after a while the fighters motivations for fighting became lost, or at least were weak.

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Originally posted by Carol02:
I'm reading the topic and thinking.."I'll be flayed for saying what I really think here -- Schindler's List is probably the MOST overrated movie in cinema history." And as I'm scrolling down and reading the comments, there's Smenkharon's little missive!! Oh joy! Thanks for breaking the ice!

Here's why I found it so offensive (and I'll mention right up front that I'm Jewish and I only saw it once, which was plenty for me):
1. Of all the stories about the Holocaust, Spielberg picks the ONE with a relatively happy ending -- the one where the good Nazi SAVES the Jews!
2. The Nazis were portrayed as businessmen....
the "labor camps" were just good business.
3. The sadism/insanity of the camps could be traced to the one clearly crazy and out-of-control Nazi (Ralph Fiennes).
4. It wasn't until A.I. that Spielberg finally became a mature filmmaker. (OK, the Normandy scene in Private Ryan was mature, but the "gee, was I worth it?" reflection framing the beginning and the end of the movie was pure Spielberg corn). The thing that he has ALWAYS excelled in (and he does get credit for this) is knowing how to manipulate an audience...and there is NO riper material for manipulation than the concentration camps! What is more emblematic of humanity's ultimate suffering and cruelty than that? It's a virtual freebie! Boxcars full of suffering Jews; a kid in a latrine; naked old people humiliated in the yard. And one little girl in a red coat -- PUH-LEESE!!!

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I don't think I could possibly add to this. A fine post.

Most overrated movie I've seen is The Passion of the Christ.

I actually paid to see a snuff film. Shame on me.

Well, I don't think the Passion of the Christ received "great" reviews, in Empire Magazine it received like 3 out of 5.
It was a quite disappointing film and I really don't see what all the freaking fuss was about!!!!

It was a gorehound's wet dream. Horror fans (bar me) seemed to love it here. So did the catholics, for reasons I'll never understand. They see it as a guilt trip. Would you pay for a guilt trip?

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Originally posted by GacYzeKlowN:
It was a gorehound's wet dream. Horror fans (bar me) seemed to love it here. So did the catholics, for reasons I'll never understand. They see it as a guilt trip. Would you pay for a guilt trip?

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I actually thought "The Passion" was a very solid well-made film. It wasnt made for entertainment purposes it was there for the public (mostly Christians) to get a deeper understanding of what Christ went through. Did I like the film, yes. Will I ever see it again, probably not.

With the exception of "Duel" and "The Sugarland Express" I'd say most of Spielberg's stuff is overrated. "E.T.", "Saving Private Ryan", "Schindler's List." All that stuff. I just don't care for his films that much. They're too sentimental and pretenciuous I think. And not in a good Frank Capra way either. But surely "Schindler's List" I wasn't impressed by. Of course "Lord of the Rings" too I don't think highly of. In fact for me they're pretty boring. "Gladiator" and "A Beautiful Mind" two average films that have gotten a lot of praise.

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Originally posted by GacYzeKlowN:
Most overrated movie I've seen is The Passion of the Christ.

I actually paid to see a snuff film. Shame on me.

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oh yeah yeah. I agree. I think it's more pornography that anything else. Watch "The Last Temptation of Christ" for a good movie about Jesus.

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Originally posted by iluv2viddyfilms:

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Originally posted by GacYzeKlowN:
Most overrated movie I've seen is The Passion of the Christ.

I actually paid to see a snuff film. Shame on me.

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oh yeah yeah. I agree. I think it's more pornography that anything else. Watch "The Last Temptation of Christ" for a good movie about Jesus.

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OR you could REWATCH "The Passion" and try to understand how it is NOT "pornography" or a "snuff film". That's the best option!!

Eccentro, just because you like it doesn't mean that others will. It got mediocre reviews by the critics, so clearly that is the case. I am not going to say whether I like it or not, because it is not my place to judge.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: St. Mike,

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Originally posted by Mike:
Eccentro, just because you like it doesn't mean that others will. It got mediocre reviews by the critics, so clearly that is the case. I am not going to say whether I like it or not, because it is not my place to judge.

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Yeah of course opinions are opinions are opinions and I know this and though it might come off that I'm trying to be this know it all or whatever well those arent my intentions. But, hell, Im stubborn and "The Passion" has been bashed to a pulp for being "pornography" something I (obviously) disagree with, now if there were more stubborn ass hole people like me on the boards everything would be chaotic but theres got to be at least ONE. This is the void in which I fill.

Actually I think that we share that void. I wouldn't call the movie "Pornography" because there are many movies that are just as, if not more, gory than this that were good, EX "Pulp Fiction". I still and going to be quite on this issue because I am sure most would know where I stand on this movie.

I've been leaving a lot of threads alone lately. I think it's better if the natural flow of discussion goes along without me trying to steer things in a certain direction. I've pretty much had my say about Spielberg, LOTR, the Christ films all over these forums, so, at least for now, I'm staying out of this, but there's some juicy stuff in here for you to sink your teeth into if you can do it clearly and reasonably. Emotions are good, but rationally-expressed emotions are more thought-provoking and persuasive. Later, Gators.

That is why I won't comment on "The Passion" because, well, I am not the person that this film was aimed at. I do not want to let my religios beliefs affecting, my movie reviews, so I just can't say anything.

I am an atheist who enjoyed the Passion and thought it was a fairly well made movie done outside of the Hollywood system. Not great, but quite good. The Last Temptation of Christ was one of the most unintentionally hilarious films I have ever seen, with some of the worst casting of all time. I was waiting the whole movie for Jesus to be told that Judas was gonna "whack" him! The Passion had vision and purpose whether you like it or not, The Last Temptation was a joke that would have made a great farcical play. Monty Python's Life of Brian was about as accurate historically as The Last Temptation!
Also, I have no problem seeing a fake "snuff" movie, as long as it is done well. Man Bites Dog as well as the Passion are both excellent!

I have to say that I did laugh at some points during the Passion
I mean, at the beginning when the Romans come to get Jesus and they dangle him next to a sort of bridge like Pinnochio! That was unintentionnally funny. And of course the very last scene which was just terrible!

Well the reason I called "The Passion" pornography was because I think it is overly violent. I understand what Gibson was getting at. Yes he wanted to show that Christ suffered horribly on the way to the cross. OK, fine. But all those lingering shots of him being whiped and of flesh being torn off of his back is a bit much. Sure show it, but this movie didn't simply have violence in it. The movie was violence. Nearly every minute of screen time was filled with brutality. There was really no message being told at all. It's extremely reptitive watching him being whiped, fall down, get up, and get whiped again.

I'm surprised audiences embraced this movie. Yes Gibson's intentions were good, I'm sure. But it's not a good movie, nor do I think Gibson used the best judgement in making in it.

Ah! So The Passion is pornography because of its' violence!?! I suspect that you feel it is pornographic only because the violence is directed towards Jesus! I never hear anyone here complaining that Arnold movies, or the beginning of Saving Private Ryan, or Grand Theft Auto games are pornographic! The Passion is a tiny piece of the Bible, and if you know your Bible than you should know that section is filled with the violent torture of Christ, and if you didn't want to see it commited to the silver screen, don't go see it! It's not like Gibson misrepresented the movie in any way. In fact, I would say that it is possibly the most accurate movie adaptation of a literary work ever made! The Passion is a brutal section of the Bible, and if you want to question Gibson, question why he is so obsessed with that small and gruesome section, not the excellent screen treatment he gave it. Audiences embraced this movie for the same reason people stop to view the horror of automobile crashes, we are obsessed with negativity, especially when it affects our icons and makes us feel better about our selves. Truly now that it has been shown on screen we understand Jesus's suffering and ultimate sacrifice for us! Ha! That last line was sarcastic by the way.